Manny Ramirez SUSPENDED 50 Games - Performance Enhancers
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Yeah, that's not true at all.
That's so far from being true that it's rotating around the planet and approaching it's not true source.
We've had this discussion for so many years (not sure if any of 'em happened on the current board) that I'm just going to say you're f*%ked if you actually think Bud Selig is keeping Pete Rose out of the HOF.
Beanpot
Are you kidding me, Selig said as long as he's alive Rose will never see the HOF. If that aint keeping him from the HOF I dont no what is
nmills said:
Are you kidding me, Selig said as long as he's alive Rose will never see the HOF. If that aint keeping him from the HOF I dont no what isHoly Christ.
Are you kidding ME? I don't "no" what you "no" about his eligibility, but Selig is simply the trust-holder. Rose voluntarily accepted a permanent placement on the banished list, not Selig. I swear to God I'm not going to get into the Dowd Report and the formal findings yet again, but I'll scream from the Heavens that Bud Selig is NOT the reason Pete Rose isn't in the Hall of Fame.
You're ill-informed if you believe that to be true.
Beanpot
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@inspecta said:
As far as I know Rose never bet on his own team, therefore he never effected the outcome of any games other than trying his best to winExcept he did just that. Several times, according to him. Every night according to one report and not every night according to others. On the off chance anyone continues to believe him:
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2798498
Rose admits to betting on Reds 'every night'
ESPN.com news services
Pete Rose revealed Wednesday that he bet on the Reds "every night" while he was manager of the team and that the Dowd Report was correct when it said he did so.
Rose spoke Wednesday with Dan Patrick and Keith Olbermann on ESPN Radio to discuss the new Pete Rose exhibit that will be on display at the Great American Ballpark as part of the Reds Hall of Fame. The exhibit will be on display for 11 months.
"I bet on my team every night. I didn't bet on my team four nights a week. I was wrong," Rose said.
Rose said that he believed in his team so much that he bet on them to win every night.
"I bet on my team to win every night because I love my team, I believe in my team," Rose said. "I did everything in my power every night to win that game."
Rose accepted a lifetime ban for gambling in 1989, but denied for nearly 15 years that he bet on baseball. He finally acknowledged in his latest autobiography, published in January 2004, that he made baseball wagers while he managed the Cincinnati Reds.
Rose said he doesn't worry about getting into the Hall of Fame anymore, but if he is reinstated, he hopes to manage again in the majors.
"I quit worrying about it," Rose said about the Hall. The former Reds great said that he thought he was going to be reinstated when he met with commissioner Bud Selig before his book came out. Rose said he met with Selig about a year before the book came out and told him everything that was in the book.
"I really thought I was going to be reinstated. Something changed [selig's] mind," Rose said.
On Thursday, John Dowd, who authored the report chronicling Rose's gambling as a member of the Reds, told "Cold Pizza" on ESPN2 that Rose was mostly right when he said he bet on every Reds game.
Dowd told the program that Rose did not bet at all in the 1987 season when Mario Soto or Bill Gullickson pitched. He also said that Rose bet while he was playing.
Dowd said Rose will never get into the Hall of Fame and should just "get used to it."
Rose said he believes it should be up to each individual owner whether he should manage in the majors again.
"[it's] all about dollars, Dan and Keith. If I was ever reinstated. If an owner don't want to win and draw people, don't call my number," Rose said.
Major League Baseball's Hit King also said he thinks that Mark McGwire is getting a raw deal from the writers voting for the Hall of Fame. The reason he said he supported McGwire is because nothing has been proven and they're all "allegations."
"Don't penalize McGwire because you think other guys are taking steroids," Rose said.
McGwire wasn't voted into the Hall of Fame in his first appearance on the ballot in January because of allegations he used performance-enhancing drugs in his career.
Rose admits he made a mistake in betting on baseball.
"I made a big mistake. It's my fault, It's nobody's else's fault," Rose said. However, he said he should be reinstated because "I'm the best ambassador baseball has."
Because of the ban, Rose is not eligible for induction into the Reds' or Baseball's Hall of Fame. He also is not allowed to be involved in most on-field activities, which has prevented the Reds from retiring his uniform No. 14.
Major League Baseball did include him in two events -- 1999's All-Century Team and 2002's 30 Memorable Moments -- that were sponsored by a credit card company.
The new exhibit includes more than 300 items from the career of Rose, who finished playing in 1986 with a record 4,256 hits. His total is reflected at the Reds' Hall in a three-story high wall of baseballs -- one for each hit.
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/print?id=27...&type=story
Beanpot
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Rose agreed to a permanent ineligibility from baseball, after that the HOF voted to ban players on the permanent ineligibile list from induction.
Rose accepted that there was a factual reason for the ban; in return, Major League Baseball agreed to make no formal finding with regard to the gambling allegations.
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@inspecta said:
There is a distinction, because if he was betting on them to win, then obviously he's still trying to win. If he bet on them to lose, well then thats just disgusting to think as a manager he would of mismanaged games on purpose to lose.Terrific point. I don't know that the distinction is quite so large. If he bet on them to win on a certain day, he may burn his bullpen without giving thought to the next game or the remainder of the series.
Regardless of the hopeful outcome, it's quite possible that his reaction would have been based on the amount of money he stood to lose.
Beanpot
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Rose agreed to a permanent ineligibility from baseball, after that the HOF voted to ban players on the permanent ineligibile list from induction.
Rose accepted that there was a factual reason for the ban; in return, Major League Baseball agreed to make no formal finding with regard to the gambling allegations.
nmills said:
Rose agreed to a permanent ineligibility from baseball, after that the HOF voted to ban players on the permanent ineligibile list from induction.Rose accepted that there was a factual reason for the ban; in return, Major League Baseball agreed to make no formal finding with regard to the gambling allegations.
Congrats on making terrific use of copy & paste. Now go back and make a compelling argument that states that Bud Selig is the reason why Pete Rose is not in the HOF.
Beanpot
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nmills said:
Rose agreed to a permanent ineligibility from baseball, after that the HOF voted to ban players on the permanent ineligibile list from induction.Rose accepted that there was a factual reason for the ban; in return, Major League Baseball agreed to make no formal finding with regard to the gambling allegations.
Congrats on making terrific use of copy & paste. Now go back and make a compelling argument that states that Bud Selig is the reason why Pete Rose is not in the HOF.
Beanpot
Congrats on making terrific use of copy & paste. Now go back and make a compelling argument that states that Bud Selig is the reason why Pete Rose is not in the HOF.
Beanpot
I'll try out that copy & paste thing again
Pete Rose should be certainly allowed back into baseball. When Bart Giamatti, the commissioner at the time the gambling allegations were made against Rose, suspended Rose for life, he didn’t intend for it to be a lifetime banishment. Giamatti took this action after the Dowd Report was returned and seemed to damn Rose on gambling charges. When Rose signed the agreement to be suspended for life by Giamatti, he signed the agreement under the pretext that he would be suspended from baseball for a year and then he could apply for re-instatement. Rose fully believed he would be allowed to return at this point. Well, to paraphrase a long chain of events, Bart Giamatti died and to present day the commissioners of baseball have not been nearly as sympathetic to Rose’s case for reinstatement as I believe Mr. Giamatti would have been.
The current commissioner, Bud Selig, has always maintained that Rose would not be reinstated until he admitted to betting on baseball and showed contrition for his actions. For more than a decade, much predating Selig’s reign as commissioner, Rose refused to admit that he bet on baseball, only admitting to betting on football. Rose admitted to betting on baseball eleven months ago to Mr. Selig, but it was kept a secret until now. Rose has now admitted to betting on baseball and has shown contrition. So now I pose a question: What else does Rose need to do to be reinstated?
The answer to this question is nothing. Rose should have been re-instated after being banished for a year. The fourteen years that he has been out of baseball is ludicrous. Even without the present day confession, Rose paid his debt to baseball after simply being away from the game for a year. After fourteen years of being away from baseball, admitting to the gambling, and showing contrition there is no logical reason to ban him any longer. Not only has he served more than his time, he has fulfilled Selig’s conditions to be reinstated. It is time for him to restore Pete Rose to Major League Baseball.
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wow...you get pwnd on your only 2 points......and you continue?
you need to sharpen the pencil.....
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Rose agreed to a permanent ineligibility from baseball, after that the HOF voted to ban players on the permanent ineligibile list from induction.
Rose accepted that there was a factual reason for the ban; in return, Major League Baseball agreed to make no formal finding with regard to the gambling allegations.
nmills said:
Rose agreed to a permanent ineligibility from baseball, after that the HOF voted to ban players on the permanent ineligibile list from induction.Rose accepted that there was a factual reason for the ban; in return, Major League Baseball agreed to make no formal finding with regard to the gambling allegations.
There was more than that:
THEREFORE, the Commissioner, recognizing the benefits to Baseball from a resolution of this matter, orders and directs that Peter Edward Rose be subject to the following disciplinary sanctions, and Peter Edward Rose, recognizing the sole and exclusive authority of the Commissioner and that it is in his interest to resolve this matter without further proceedings, agrees to accept the following disciplinary sanctions imposed by the Commissioner.
a. Peter Edward Rose is hereby declared permanently ineligible in accordance with Major League Rule 21 and placed on the Ineligible List.
b. Nothing in this Agreement shall deprive Peter Edward Rose of the rights under Major League Rule 15
to apply for reinstatement. THEREFORE, the Commissioner, recognizing the benefits to Baseball from a resolution of this matter, orders and directs that Peter Edward Rose be subject to the following disciplinary sanctions, and Peter Edward Rose, recognizing the sole and exclusive authority of the Commissioner and that it is in his interest to resolve this matter without further proceedings, agrees to accept the following disciplinary sanctions imposed by the Commissioner.a. Peter Edward Rose is hereby declared permanently ineligible in accordance with Major League Rule 21 and placed on the Ineligible List.
b. Nothing in this Agreement shall deprive Peter Edward Rose of the rights under Major League Rule 15
to apply for reinstatement. Peter Edward Rose agrees not to challenge, appeal or otherwise contest the decision of, or the procedure employed by, the Commissioner or any future Commissioner in the evaluation of any application for reinstatement.c. Nothing in this agreement shall be deemed either an admission or a denial by Peter Edward Rose of the allegation that he bet on any Major League Baseball game.
"Peter Edward Rose agrees not to challenge, appeal or otherwise contest the decision of, or the procedure employed by, the Commissioner or any future Commissioner in the evaluation of any application for reinstatement."
This was an easy copy and paste. Rose has been the very definition of "contentious" in regards to his reinstatement. You kinda get the idea that Selig doesn't feel it's his privilege to go back on the word of a previous commissioner. He probably considers Giamatti's decision as written in stone.
The paste came from: http://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/p_rosea.shtml
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nmills said:
Rose agreed to a permanent ineligibility from baseball, after that the HOF voted to ban players on the permanent ineligibile list from induction.Rose accepted that there was a factual reason for the ban; in return, Major League Baseball agreed to make no formal finding with regard to the gambling allegations.
There was more than that:
THEREFORE, the Commissioner, recognizing the benefits to Baseball from a resolution of this matter, orders and directs that Peter Edward Rose be subject to the following disciplinary sanctions, and Peter Edward Rose, recognizing the sole and exclusive authority of the Commissioner and that it is in his interest to resolve this matter without further proceedings, agrees to accept the following disciplinary sanctions imposed by the Commissioner.
a. Peter Edward Rose is hereby declared permanently ineligible in accordance with Major League Rule 21 and placed on the Ineligible List.
b. Nothing in this Agreement shall deprive Peter Edward Rose of the rights under Major League Rule 15
to apply for reinstatement. THEREFORE, the Commissioner, recognizing the benefits to Baseball from a resolution of this matter, orders and directs that Peter Edward Rose be subject to the following disciplinary sanctions, and Peter Edward Rose, recognizing the sole and exclusive authority of the Commissioner and that it is in his interest to resolve this matter without further proceedings, agrees to accept the following disciplinary sanctions imposed by the Commissioner.a. Peter Edward Rose is hereby declared permanently ineligible in accordance with Major League Rule 21 and placed on the Ineligible List.
b. Nothing in this Agreement shall deprive Peter Edward Rose of the rights under Major League Rule 15
to apply for reinstatement. Peter Edward Rose agrees not to challenge, appeal or otherwise contest the decision of, or the procedure employed by, the Commissioner or any future Commissioner in the evaluation of any application for reinstatement.c. Nothing in this agreement shall be deemed either an admission or a denial by Peter Edward Rose of the allegation that he bet on any Major League Baseball game.
"Peter Edward Rose agrees not to challenge, appeal or otherwise contest the decision of, or the procedure employed by, the Commissioner or any future Commissioner in the evaluation of any application for reinstatement."
This was an easy copy and paste. Rose has been the very definition of "contentious" in regards to his reinstatement. You kinda get the idea that Selig doesn't feel it's his privilege to go back on the word of a previous commissioner. He probably considers Giamatti's decision as written in stone.
The paste came from: http://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/p_rosea.shtml
"Peter Edward Rose agrees not to challenge, appeal or otherwise contest the decision of, or the procedure employed by, the Commissioner or any future Commissioner in the evaluation of any application for reinstatement."
So that says when he files for reinstatement and a commissioner decides not to reinstate him, he cant contest it.
What was that supposed to prove other than my point that Bud Selig is the reason Rose isn't in the HOF
1st Ezekiel Ansah, DE, BYU 3rd Darius Slay, CB, Mississippi State4th Landry Jones, QB, Oklahoma5th Earl Wolff, S, N.C. State6th Lucas Reed, TE, New Mexico -
Beans is the baseball purist- seems like.
Oh, not even close. The baseball purist hates the DH, pisses on inter-league play, grinds his heel deep into the blueprints of expansion and defecates all over the '68 rule change that lowered the mound.
I'm not that guy. I simply love the game, warts and all. Not a popular opinion around these parts, it seems.
My question to you about voiding Sosa's records was sincere - how in the hell do you do that? I know all about his corked bat and his corked-filled arms and Rick Reilly's "Excuse Me For Asking" column. I'm pretty sure I know his ass was filled with syringe holes during the latter part of his career.
But my question was simple - how in the hell do you void his career marks and place them in the trash can?
I get that *you* want to ignore his numbers and that's fine. But they actually happened and the record book is nothing more than a recording of those events. As it always has been, it's there for you to interpret any way you'd like. Just as you would if your favorite running back spent four seasons running behind a tackle who was oozing testosterone cream.
Not that that could possibly happen.
Not to come across as too defensive in this crowd, but it's high comedy to read that a football fan is thankful he's not a baseball fan due to...steroids in the sport.
Beanpot
Oh, not even close. The baseball purist hates the DH, pisses on inter-league play, grinds his heel deep into the blueprints of expansion and defecates all over the '68 rule change that lowered the mound.
I'm not that guy. I simply love the game, warts and all. Not a popular opinion around these parts, it seems.
My question to you about voiding Sosa's records was sincere - how in the hell do you do that? I know all about his corked bat and his corked-filled arms and Rick Reilly's "Excuse Me For Asking" column. I'm pretty sure I know his ass was filled with syringe holes during the latter part of his career.
But my question was simple - how in the hell do you void his career marks and place them in the trash can?
I get that *you* want to ignore his numbers and that's fine. But they actually happened and the record book is nothing more than a recording of those events. As it always has been, it's there for you to interpret any way you'd like. Just as you would if your favorite running back spent four seasons running behind a tackle who was oozing testosterone cream.
Not that that could possibly happen.
Not to come across as too defensive in this crowd, but it's high comedy to read that a football fan is thankful he's not a baseball fan due to...steroids in the sport.
Beanpot
I think the problem is there's no PROOF that Sosa or McGwire actually did steroids, just like there's no PROOF that 1\2 of the Steelers SB teams of the 70s were juiced up. There's a ton of circumstantial evidence though, no? Maybe it's splitting hairs, but I"m not suggesting punishing a team because individuals on that team were cheating. But individual records in other sports can and do go in the dumper on a regular basis. Like Ben Johnson's 100 meter record. Like Floyd Landis' win in the Tour de France.
Baseball won't have the balls (pun intended) to void the cheaters records- but they sure as hell can keep them out of the hall for it. Better yet- just like they have the Broadcasters Hall, let's build the * Hall. this list will be quite long.
BTW, if A-Roid catches Bonds, it's because he had a head start on the juice.
Oh, the reason baseball is way down on my list- steroids are only a tiny part of the equation.
1) The season is way too long- don't ya just love to see a World Series game played in 38 degree weather, and getting snow-outs in April?
2) Of course the reason the season is way too long is the insane contracts owners have given players. Based on risk\reward factor if A-Roid is worth $250 million, Brady & P. Manning are worth at least twice that.
3) Now because of #2 if I want to see a (meaningless) regular season game from a seat that I don't need a 50 power telescope to see the ball, it's going to set me back what? $40? How 'bout dem Yankee fans that can fork out 4X the price of a SB ticket for the same privilege? FWIW, a seat 5 rows behind the Indians dugout in the 60s cost $4-I saved one.
4) Beauty might be in the eyes of the beholder- but just as America has never really warmed to soccer, a bunch of us just see baseball as plain boring. Like maybe a 1\2 step ahead of tennis (great to play dull to watch) and golf.
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"Peter Edward Rose agrees not to challenge, appeal or otherwise contest the decision of, or the procedure employed by, the Commissioner or any future Commissioner in the evaluation of any application for reinstatement."
So that says when he files for reinstatement and a commissioner decides not to reinstate him, he cant contest it.
What was that supposed to prove other than my point that Bud Selig is the reason Rose isn't in the HOF
nmills said:
So that says when he files for reinstatement and a commissioner decides not to reinstate him, he cant contest it.What was that supposed to prove other than my point that Bud Selig is the reason Rose isn't in the HOF
The reason Pete Rose isn't in the HOF is he bet on baseball while employed in baseball. Rule #21 is on every clubhouse wall. I'm close enough to Cinti to tell you this- got friends that have had personal contact with Peetey- and the unanimous opinion is he's one arrogant a-hole that thinks the rules don't apply to him.
Does he merit inclusion in the hall based on his records? Of course. But somewhere, Shoeless Joe Jackson and Ray Fosse are smiling- you young 'uns can look that up if you like.
So Pete's a compulsive gambler- my vote is to put him in the Hall the year after he croaks- and put Shoeless Joe's bust right next to him.
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"Peter Edward Rose agrees not to challenge, appeal or otherwise contest the decision of, or the procedure employed by, the Commissioner or any future Commissioner in the evaluation of any application for reinstatement."
So that says when he files for reinstatement and a commissioner decides not to reinstate him, he cant contest it.
What was that supposed to prove other than my point that Bud Selig is the reason Rose isn't in the HOF
nmills said:
So that says when he files for reinstatement and a commissioner decides not to reinstate him, he cant contest it.What was that supposed to prove other than my point that Bud Selig is the reason Rose isn't in the HOF
The commissioner that took Rose down was not Budrick, it was Bart Giamatti (sp).
The Rose case reminds me so much of the OJ event in so many ways. Much like the blacks wanted to come to Orenthal's defense and believe his own lies because of past indisgressions towards blacks, Rose had overwhelming evidence against him that he refused to believe.
You gamble on baseball, you forfeit your right to be affiliated in the sport. It's been that way since the Black Sox Scandal. The rules are very cut and dry, so feel free to read up on them.
There is no justification or exceptions pertaining to this issue, it is what it is. Most of us loved Pete Rose as a player, or even if you hated him you respected him. However, nothing can supersede what he's done.
I used to umpire, and this all correlates to the same principal, it's cut and dry.
As far as juice goes, there is no way to gauge any of it. It's totally ambiguous and Beanpot's post above says it all. You can't asterisk this stuff or whatever, but the bottom line is guys like Clemens (total dbag), Bonds, McGuire, Sosa, ManRam and Palmeiro types are not getting voted in, at least not for awhile. People have already forgiven guys like Giambi, but for guys like Roger that want to act the victim and play the Rose card, it doesn't work.
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IMO, justifying something as right because EVERYONE is doing it when there's considerable resources to STOP it is a copout. If they clean up the NFL and MLB, who's going to stop watching it? That's my ultimate hope.
- Tom F.
Terrific post Tom. We've gone down this road for nearly a decade in various formats so while I applaud you for your inclusiveness, allow me to tell the naive to blow it out their ass when they continue to wag their finger at MLB while supporting the NFL. I get why those people prefer one sport to the other, but they're lying their sweet ass off if they point to PEDs as a bullet point.
This was hardly a dark day for baseball. Sucked ass for my fantasy team, but not for the sport. Simply validated testing.
I'm going to post a terrific column from Craig Calcaterra in a sec, but before that here's Bill James saying something that the children may not like to hear but they're going to think it all the same:
You give me the opportunity to earn $22 million a year by taking steroids, I’ll shoot the pharmacist if I have to. I’m not saying it’s right. I’m not saying I shouldn’t be punished for shooting the pharmacist. I am saying it is self-righteous to pretend that I don’t have the same human failings that these guys do, and further, if you are insisting that you don’t have them, I don’t believe you.
Calcaterra:
Manny’s suspension: less crisis than opportunity
by Craig Calcaterra
May 08, 2009
Come and step into my time machine for a moment. I want to show you something.
(Flash forward)
Nov. 3, 2009
LOS ANGELES (AP)—A season filled with ups and downs finished at the highest possible point last night for the Los Angeles Dodgers, as they defeated the Boston Red Sox for their seventh World Series championship in franchise history.
"It's a long season," said a champagne-soaked Dodgers manager Joe Torre, "and the key to surviving a long season is staying healthy and team depth, and those are both things we had in spades."
(Flash back)
I can see that, can't you? As the news of Manny Ramirez's suspension was breaking yesterday morning, the Dodgers were sitting pretty with a six-and-a-half game lead over the Giants and an eight-and-a-half game lead over everyone else in the division. None of the Dodgers' competitors seems poised or equipped to make a run. Last year the Dodgers stood two games out of first place on July 31 when Ramirez joined the team. This year they will likely be at least two games— more, I'd bet—ahead of the pack on July 3 when Ramirez joins the team, impacting them in much the same way any big ticket deadline deal impacts a team. Except his legs will be fresher, his body less battered and bruised by the seemingly interminable baseball season.
What's more, the $7 million the Dodgers will have saved could be used for an additional deadline pickup or two, and whoever steps in for Manny will either be helped by having taken the extra reps or definitively determined to be useless, which will prompt the team to make shakeups it might not otherwise have done. Obviously you'd rather have Manny Ramirez in your lineup, but as the old saying goes, crisis is another word for opportunity, and the Dodgers' big lead affords them the luxury to make an omelet out of all of these broken eggs.
(Flash forward)
Sept. 17, 2011
NEW YORK, N.Y. (AP)—NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell will announce today that football players and owners have reached an agreement on a tougher drug-testing program, one modeled after that employed in Major League Baseball, sources said. Discussions regarding a change in the league's testing program have been ongoing for over two years.
"It was really the Manny Ramirez thing in baseball that got the ball rolling here," said a source in the commissioner's office who asked to remain unnamed because he was not permitted to speak about the plan before its unveiling.
"Sure, football has always been assumed to have less of a drug problem than baseball. And yeah, on paper, the policies were pretty similar. But once Manny was suspended, people started to wonder why none of the big football stars have ever been caught. Our linemen average 320 pounds for cryin' out loud. It strained credulity that the NFL was so much cleaner than baseball, and that's when everyone figured out all of our loopholes and dirty secrets. These days baseball is considered the gold standard of drug testing in American sports, and frankly, we needed to get our house in order too."
(Flash back)
Probably wishful thinking on my part, but really, isn't Manny Ramirez's positive test and subsequent suspension a good thing for baseball? Isn't it, contrary to the reports out last night, a validation of the testing system? It certainly represents that which baseball's critics sought just a few short years ago: a relatively swift and automatic system that isn't bogged down by union maneuvering and litigation any time a violation is found.
It's also strong evidence that baseball's testing regime is not just for show, with the occasional Quad-A player and international prospect sacrificed in the name of false purity. Manny Ramirez is one of the biggest stars in the game, and if he can be caught, anyone can. There certainly has been no NFL equivalent of Manny Ramirez caught red-handed, and I find that quite curious. Regardless, this news, if anything, should give us greater confidence about the current state of drugs in baseball, not less.
(Flash forward)
July 23, 2018
COOPERSTOWN, N.Y. (AP)—For more than two decades, Manny Ramirez unnerved opposing pitchers while inhabiting the batter's box with an almost preternatural calm. On Sunday, he was calm again as he took the stage for his induction into the Baseball Hall of Fame—the same stage upon which other immortals have broken down with emotion when similarly honored. Guess it was just Manny being Manny one last time.
There was a time, however, when such a sight seemed unthinkable. That was in 2009 when Ramirez was suspended for 50 games for violating the league's substance abuse policy. Baseball's anti-doping program was still in its early stages then, and Ramirez was the first major star to be suspended for performance enhancing drugs.
At the time, any association with steroids was thought of as a Hall of Fame death sentence. And indeed, it has only been recently that PED-associated players who have long been eligible for induction—players like Barry Bonds, Mark McGwire and Roger Clemens—have been allowed into the Hall without buying a ticket. Why the sea change in national sentiment?
"Perspective," said Baseball Writers Association of America President Joe Posnanski. "An understanding of history. An appreciation that steroids, while altering our relationship with the game and its players, didn't alter the game itself nearly as much as many of us thought 15 years ago." Posnanski continued:
"As more and more information about what went on in baseball in the so-called 'Steroid Era' came to light, it became apparent that we didn't have a situation in which evil cheaters preyed upon overmatched innocents. Far more players used than initially realized, the effects were scattershot at best, and it eventually became obvious to all of us that, while steroids brought some benefits, they didn't make a Hall of Famer. Sure, 500 home runs doesn't mean the same thing now as it meant when I was a kid, but if we can induct pitchers who threw off of 18-inch mounds, took amphetamines and scuffed baseballs in the '60s, we can certainly induct guys who took HGH in the '90s."
(Flash back)
OK, I'll admit that one may be the biggest stretch of all, but it's not totally implausible, is it? Each time a new player— especially a superstar—is pushed out of the PED closet, it means that the era in which we've been living is, ironically, less illegitimate than we previously believed. Why? Because the more players who are found to have used PEDs, the less accurate it is to say that anyone truly had an unfair advantage. Sure, on a matchup-by-matchup basis there were users facing non-users, but the caricature of a small group of cheaters ruining it for everyone else in the game grows more ridiculous as each new name surfaces.
Let's face the facts: Many, many ballplayers have used PEDs in recent years. So many, that the allegation that any one user had an unfair advantage is at risk of becoming obsolete. As I've said time and time again, rather than demonizing these guys, calling for bans and locking the doors of the Hall of Fame, perhaps we should simply acknowledge that PEDs are best thought of as a generation's unique playing conditions like dead balls, segregated leagues, and giant strike zones. We have no problem acknowledging that 18 wins and a 2.50 ERA didn't make a guy anything special in 1904, so why is it so hard to come to grips with and adjust to the fact that 400 or 500 home runs don't necessarily make anyone special today?
Have PEDs thrown us so off our game that we can't tell the difference between a Hall of Famer and and a non-Hall of Famer? I don't believe so, and I think that eventually the writers and historians will realize this too.
Okay, our time traveling is over. Pretty trippy, huh? But before you say anything, I should let you know: What we saw was only one potential future. Time is not set in stone, and indeed, there are many other potential futures as well. Which one we actually experience depends on a lot of things. Solar flares. Chaos Theory. How much emotion and how little logic we employ when we come to a historical crossroads.
We're at one now, so it's probably a pretty good time to think about rather than simply emote at what lies before us.
http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/...an-opportunity/
Beanpot
Terrific post Tom. We've gone down this road for nearly a decade in various formats so while I applaud you for your inclusiveness, allow me to tell the naive to blow it out their ass when they continue to wag their finger at MLB while supporting the NFL. I get why those people prefer one sport to the other, but they're lying their sweet ass off if they point to PEDs as a bullet point.
This was hardly a dark day for baseball. Sucked ass for my fantasy team, but not for the sport. Simply validated testing.
Beanpot
Thanks Beans! I know you LOVE baseball the way I love football so I know you're hoping MLB continues the recent efforts and strides they are making. I think they're going in a much better direction. And just remember, we're NEVER going to lose the guys that WANT it so bad they'll work their tails off the RIGHT way to be as good as HUMANLY possible. Key word in that sentence is "humanly."
The NEXT message all sports need to send is that those getting caught cheating need to LOSE a considerable portion of salary BEYOND the games missed due to suspension.
There's ALWAYS going to be guys that WANT to cheat one way or another to gain an edge. Doing the RIGHT thing up at the TOP of each professional league will have a good trickle down effect. Modernized testing can detect ALOT of today's drugs of choice. However, if the message is clearly sent that this LEAGUE does not want to exchange greed (keeping testing costs low in relation to profit margins) for what is right - this is what we call an ENABLING FACTOR. Enabling factors superceed all other variables whether we like it or not. Mankind has pushed the borders of right and wrong since the Gqarden of Eden if I summarized the forbidden fruit story correctly. Like Beans alluded to, throw in $22 million and WHO is thinking about Heaven in the afterlife when they grew up piss poor in this life? THAT is what I want removed.
I worked in Tampa Bay's weight room part time when I was a Coporate Fitness Manager for Xerox in the late 90s. More specifically, I was sked to witness a random drug test involving 3 guys. 2 of them never made the final roster if we want to get a sense of how comprehensive it all is.
What ALOT of people don't realize is that MANY players make themselves HUGE abusers all the way until they get that dream signing bonus. And then the team that paid it ponders - what happened? We've seen this free agents that disappeared into the sunset quietly and highly sought rookie hopefuls. Tony Mandarach had to QUIT juicing because his LIVER was failing and on it's way out. Green Bay got a enormous pick that was supposed to dominate people. By the time football season rolled around he was so sick from his steroid abuse - he barely made the team as he was going through batteries of health assessments. That said, GB paid an HUGE signing bonus. Then there's the TO's of the league that suffer the mental/emotional rollercoasters of unpredictability and unreliability. Out of nowhere this guy becomes an elite receiver when he was once only good enough to play ball at Chattanoogoa - where they turn out LESS pros than Division II/III Texas Kingsville. In an era of salary cap and outrageous signing bonuses, season ticket prices and the prognosis for team success centers around WHO is getting these signign bonuses.
ALL sports CAN clean it up considerably if they fork out the dollars. I HATE this feeling but sometimes when I see a guy I thought was Superman dying anywhere from mid 30s up until 50th birthdays - I can't help but wonder was this a NATURAL athlete? These MAJOR sports never sucked before the steroids invasion. In fact, I think the tackling and pitching was BETTER before the cheating was allowed to get so widespread. It's all about the enabling factors folks.
- Tom F. (If the Rocky story had steroids in it - there's ONLY 1 state in this country that would have still deemed him the ultimate hero. Look no further than where it was filmed)
-
Before we start sending all the modern day athletes to Siberia as punishment keep in mind that drugs have always played a part in major league baseball....
In the 50's and 60's, the locker rooms on EVERY TEAM was chock full of anphetamines (sic) "speeders" to help the player gety through the day....
Feeling a little sluggish, go see the trainer and get a handfull of christmas trees, that will amp up your play....
The modern athelete, with the monster salaries, just took it to a higher level.....
I'm not saying it's acceptable but with the most powerful labor union behind you, some players choose to do whatever is necessary to keep that major league paycheck....
Speeders have been the staple in both the NFL & MLB since I can remember...
When I was in college, the Steelers trained at West Liberty State College in West Virginia....
Bobby Lane & his teammates would be out in the bars, the local hangout "the bucket of blood", into the wee hours of the morning... The next day they took speeders to get them through practice...
I'm not saying it's right or fair, just saying what it is and what I saw.....
T.Dawg
Good points but steroids are a whole other level as far as drugs go, they really do make a huge difference.
Good points but steroids are a whole other level as far as drugs go, they really do make a huge difference.
Riff, since everybody's DNA is different, which also means their thinking patterns are different, which also means their approaches are different - the cost/effect relationship is VERY unpredictable. Some guys get severe side effects. Some guys suffer emotional rollercoasters (Ryan Tucker, Terry Long, Greg Lloyd) and some guys get lucky. There's all sorts variables leading to all sorts of consequences. Unfortunately, an uneducated meathead can end up dead. Even worse, when YOUNG kids want to be the next Shawn Merriman or Arod - chances are they aren't any better educated than a meathead that ends up dead.
Not everyone can go Arnold Schwartzeneggar for a signigicant number of years juicing without consequences. Classic examples are Mr Olympiamns that came AFTER Arnold suffering life threatening consequences that ended bodybuilding careers prematurely.
For every Tony Mandarach who re-enters the human race via a failing liver - there's ALWAYS going to be a Shawn Merriman who prolly can abuse steroids as long as Arnold did. Worth noting here, Mandarach CLEANED up his habits and RE-ENTERED the NFL as an Indy Colt where he became an OG with average skills. He was NEVER thought of as elite caliber again but the GOOD in this was he was STILL good enough to START if he was willing to do what REAL blue collar types do. That is REFUSING shortcuts in lieu of good ole fashion hard work.
I'll remember this until the day I die. In the early 80s, our local gym had a HUGE steroids guy name Jimmy who worked out with his black market scientist Joe. He was REALLY funny and likable and paranoid so we busted his balls alot. I was in the pre-launch/pre-stench sequence of taking a dump in the bathroom and I heard Jimmy in a loud whisper from his urinal to his buddy shaving at the sink:
Jimmy: "HEY JOE, JOE, JOE - I'M BLEEDING. PISSIN BLOOD HORSE!"
Joe: "That's okay Jimmy, it doesn't hurt does it?"
Jimmy: "No, we're good!"
Joe: "Thatta boy! No pain - no thang. Candyasses don't win bench press competitions."
As the soothesayer above said, Jimmy went on to win a local bench press competition because he was allowed to.
- Tom F. (The REASON I always admired PRO sports was because these were supposed to be elite performers that could do the things that other average Joes and wannabees like me could ONLY appreciate. If I find out they're ALL cheating to be what I couldn't be - it's going to take a serious bite out of how much I appreciate it all)
-
Congrats on making terrific use of copy & paste. Now go back and make a compelling argument that states that Bud Selig is the reason why Pete Rose is not in the HOF.
Beanpot
I'll try out that copy & paste thing again
Pete Rose should be certainly allowed back into baseball. When Bart Giamatti, the commissioner at the time the gambling allegations were made against Rose, suspended Rose for life, he didn’t intend for it to be a lifetime banishment. Giamatti took this action after the Dowd Report was returned and seemed to damn Rose on gambling charges. When Rose signed the agreement to be suspended for life by Giamatti, he signed the agreement under the pretext that he would be suspended from baseball for a year and then he could apply for re-instatement. Rose fully believed he would be allowed to return at this point. Well, to paraphrase a long chain of events, Bart Giamatti died and to present day the commissioners of baseball have not been nearly as sympathetic to Rose’s case for reinstatement as I believe Mr. Giamatti would have been.
The current commissioner, Bud Selig, has always maintained that Rose would not be reinstated until he admitted to betting on baseball and showed contrition for his actions. For more than a decade, much predating Selig’s reign as commissioner, Rose refused to admit that he bet on baseball, only admitting to betting on football. Rose admitted to betting on baseball eleven months ago to Mr. Selig, but it was kept a secret until now. Rose has now admitted to betting on baseball and has shown contrition. So now I pose a question: What else does Rose need to do to be reinstated?
The answer to this question is nothing. Rose should have been re-instated after being banished for a year. The fourteen years that he has been out of baseball is ludicrous. Even without the present day confession, Rose paid his debt to baseball after simply being away from the game for a year. After fourteen years of being away from baseball, admitting to the gambling, and showing contrition there is no logical reason to ban him any longer. Not only has he served more than his time, he has fulfilled Selig’s conditions to be reinstated. It is time for him to restore Pete Rose to Major League Baseball.
nmills said:
I'll try out that copy & paste thing againWonderful. Next time go the extra mile and add a link to what you copy and paste. It's simple courtesy.
As for your link to a dogstreetjournal article from 5 years ago, the only words that come to mind are "you have got to be xxxxing kidding me."
Look, if you're in your infancy of this discussion (which you clearly are, given that source) I strongly recommend you dig a bit deeper. The discussion has evolved into all sorts of xxxxedupedness from supporters and detractors, but the one rallying point is that your copy and paste brilliance is nothing more than dated ignorance.
I'm serious when I say that the entire topic is a bore and that there are no winners. It's folly to blame anyone other than Rose for his banishment, but the effort to do just that is numbing.
We're having a fun discussion about the topic on the link below (warning - your belief that Bud Selig is the reason why Rose isn't in the HOF may be met with blank stares, given the idiocy behind that opinion - no offense)
http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/05/14...structing-pete/
Beanpot
-
Terrific post Tom. We've gone down this road for nearly a decade in various formats so while I applaud you for your inclusiveness, allow me to tell the naive to blow it out their ass when they continue to wag their finger at MLB while supporting the NFL. I get why those people prefer one sport to the other, but they're lying their sweet ass off if they point to PEDs as a bullet point.
This was hardly a dark day for baseball. Sucked ass for my fantasy team, but not for the sport. Simply validated testing.
Beanpot
Thanks Beans! I know you LOVE baseball the way I love football so I know you're hoping MLB continues the recent efforts and strides they are making. I think they're going in a much better direction. And just remember, we're NEVER going to lose the guys that WANT it so bad they'll work their tails off the RIGHT way to be as good as HUMANLY possible. Key word in that sentence is "humanly."
The NEXT message all sports need to send is that those getting caught cheating need to LOSE a considerable portion of salary BEYOND the games missed due to suspension.
There's ALWAYS going to be guys that WANT to cheat one way or another to gain an edge. Doing the RIGHT thing up at the TOP of each professional league will have a good trickle down effect. Modernized testing can detect ALOT of today's drugs of choice. However, if the message is clearly sent that this LEAGUE does not want to exchange greed (keeping testing costs low in relation to profit margins) for what is right - this is what we call an ENABLING FACTOR. Enabling factors superceed all other variables whether we like it or not. Mankind has pushed the borders of right and wrong since the Gqarden of Eden if I summarized the forbidden fruit story correctly. Like Beans alluded to, throw in $22 million and WHO is thinking about Heaven in the afterlife when they grew up piss poor in this life? THAT is what I want removed.
I worked in Tampa Bay's weight room part time when I was a Coporate Fitness Manager for Xerox in the late 90s. More specifically, I was sked to witness a random drug test involving 3 guys. 2 of them never made the final roster if we want to get a sense of how comprehensive it all is.
What ALOT of people don't realize is that MANY players make themselves HUGE abusers all the way until they get that dream signing bonus. And then the team that paid it ponders - what happened? We've seen this free agents that disappeared into the sunset quietly and highly sought rookie hopefuls. Tony Mandarach had to QUIT juicing because his LIVER was failing and on it's way out. Green Bay got a enormous pick that was supposed to dominate people. By the time football season rolled around he was so sick from his steroid abuse - he barely made the team as he was going through batteries of health assessments. That said, GB paid an HUGE signing bonus. Then there's the TO's of the league that suffer the mental/emotional rollercoasters of unpredictability and unreliability. Out of nowhere this guy becomes an elite receiver when he was once only good enough to play ball at Chattanoogoa - where they turn out LESS pros than Division II/III Texas Kingsville. In an era of salary cap and outrageous signing bonuses, season ticket prices and the prognosis for team success centers around WHO is getting these signign bonuses.
ALL sports CAN clean it up considerably if they fork out the dollars. I HATE this feeling but sometimes when I see a guy I thought was Superman dying anywhere from mid 30s up until 50th birthdays - I can't help but wonder was this a NATURAL athlete? These MAJOR sports never sucked before the steroids invasion. In fact, I think the tackling and pitching was BETTER before the cheating was allowed to get so widespread. It's all about the enabling factors folks.
- Tom F. (If the Rocky story had steroids in it - there's ONLY 1 state in this country that would have still deemed him the ultimate hero. Look no further than where it was filmed)
Thanks Beans! I know you LOVE baseball the way I love football so I know you're hoping MLB continues the recent efforts and strides they are making. I think they're going in a much better direction. And just remember, we're NEVER going to lose the guys that WANT it so bad they'll work their tails off the RIGHT way to be as good as HUMANLY possible. Key word in that sentence is "humanly."
Amen.
Beanpot
-
Look I agree with pretty much every opinion you have when talking baseball and I'm sure you have much more baseball knowledge than I. With that said I have to respectfully disagree with you on this one. True Rose was the one who bet on baseball, true he's an arrogant SOB but theres many people in the HOF who are not liked; many cheaters, racists, murders and so on. In my opinion If Bud Selig would've reinstated Rose he would be in the HOF. To me thats Selig keeping him outta the HOF. I understand if you dont agree with that, thats your opinion; but when you respond to me you can show a little respect. I've never attacked you or anyone on this board and I would expect the same in return.
-
Look I agree with pretty much every opinion you have when talking baseball and I'm sure you have much more baseball knowledge than I. With that said I have to respectfully disagree with you on this one. True Rose was the one who bet on baseball, true he's an arrogant SOB but theres many people in the HOF who are not liked; many cheaters, racists, murders and so on. In my opinion If Bud Selig would've reinstated Rose he would be in the HOF. To me thats Selig keeping him outta the HOF. I understand if you dont agree with that, thats your opinion; but when you respond to me you can show a little respect. I've never attacked you or anyone on this board and I would expect the same in return.
nmills said:
when you respond to me you can show a little respect. I've never attacked you or anyone on this board and I would expect the same in return.Oh bite me.
Seriously, if I knew how to work the emoticons I'd have a smiley face right here.
I respect the hell out of you. You're willing to argue about effing baseball. That earns you some mad cred (however the kids say it) and I wish there were more out there like you.
So we disagree about Rose. Doesn't mean I think you're an idiot. Way WAY far from it. Hell, you've taken the time to post stuff from Castro on the Tribe Board. I should be licking your feet for that.
Bottom line is that I DO respect your opinions and thank you for your contributions. It's just that I enjoy going toe to toe with a fellow baseball fan. I'll do some work on the "do not demean an adversary" part.
Wish me luck on that.
Beanpot
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