A Complicated Defence
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Mudfly and I (love ya buddy) went back and forth on this a good bit back in the days of Pettine. To make a long story short, what I hated about O'Neil's system is that it was too complicated for it's own good. Players were complaining that it didn't have anything to do with understanding the concepts, it's that it took the instinct out of the position.
This happens in my world (higher education) A LOT. Very smart people put too much high level thinking into something and forget the basic human element of the whole thing. What it means is that while the policy (or in the football sense the scheme) has merit, the practical use of it is fundamentally flawed. I don't see William's scheme like that though. I think his philosophy is more that you gotta play football, and that means playing outside the traditional role of your position sometimes. As usual, we shall see how it goes though.
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Fuckin' god damn Canadians.
I was going to say...are you British? Do yourself a favour...and don't pronounce it : Al-you-min-ee-um either. It is Uh-loo-min-um
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Mudfly and I (love ya buddy) went back and forth on this a good bit back in the days of Pettine. To make a long story short, what I hated about O'Neil's system is that it was too complicated for it's own good. Players were complaining that it didn't have anything to do with understanding the concepts, it's that it took the instinct out of the position.
This happens in my world (higher education) A LOT. Very smart people put too much high level thinking into something and forget the basic human element of the whole thing. What it means is that while the policy (or in the football sense the scheme) has merit, the practical use of it is fundamentally flawed. I don't see William's scheme like that though. I think his philosophy is more that you gotta play football, and that means playing outside the traditional role of your position sometimes. As usual, we shall see how it goes though.
Mudfly and I (love ya buddy) went back and forth on this a good bit back in the days of Pettine. To make a long story short, what I hated about O'Neil's system is that it was too complicated for it's own good. Players were complaining that it didn't have anything to do with understanding the concepts, it's that it took the instinct out of the position.
This happens in my world (higher education) A LOT. Very smart people put too much high level thinking into something and forget the basic human element of the whole thing. What it means is that while the policy (or in the football sense the scheme) has merit, the practical use of it is fundamentally flawed. I don't see William's scheme like that though. I think his philosophy is more that you gotta play football, and that means playing outside the traditional role of your position sometimes. As usual, we shall see how it goes though.
It also helps just a little bit if you add far better, faster, more talented players to the roster. Fancy that!
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Mudfly and I (love ya buddy) went back and forth on this a good bit back in the days of Pettine. To make a long story short, what I hated about O'Neil's system is that it was too complicated for it's own good. Players were complaining that it didn't have anything to do with understanding the concepts, it's that it took the instinct out of the position.
This happens in my world (higher education) A LOT. Very smart people put too much high level thinking into something and forget the basic human element of the whole thing. What it means is that while the policy (or in the football sense the scheme) has merit, the practical use of it is fundamentally flawed. I don't see William's scheme like that though. I think his philosophy is more that you gotta play football, and that means playing outside the traditional role of your position sometimes. As usual, we shall see how it goes though.
It also helps just a little bit if you add far better, faster, more talented players to the roster. Fancy that!
It also helps just a little bit if you add far better, faster, more talented players to the roster. Fancy that!
Oh yeah, don't get me wrong the talent void on that team was marked. But at the same time, dudes like Karlos Dansby and Donte Whitner should not have been struggling like they were. It wasn't just the complicated defense aspect, but it played heavily into the whole (at least in my upmost humble opinion).
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I seem to recall a couple of seasons ago (Pettine/O'Neil), one of the excuses for the Browns futility on the defensive side of the football, was that the schemes were too complicated. Nobody knew precisely where they were supposed to go and it involved a lot of mixing and matching assignments.
That could have just been an excuse because the team sucked. But it was a sentiment often echoed by folks here and "experts" (radio pundits and the such).
I like Williams and his "go fuck 'em up" approach. His attitude is the right one. This thread is not aimed at pissing on him.
But if a group of aging veteran defenders couldn't figure out Jim O'Neil's "system", I fear a far worse situation with a group of rookies and second-year hopefuls deciphering one that seems... almost schizophrenic in (even just) what position one is expected to play from down to down.
Am I the only one hesitant about this? And if I am (and you're comfortable)... What inspires that confidence? What is unique in Williams' approach that makes it more user friendly than what we've seen in the past?
I seem to recall a couple of seasons ago (Pettine/O'Neil), one of the excuses for the Browns futility on the defensive side of the football, was that the schemes were too complicated. Nobody knew precisely where they were supposed to go and it involved a lot of mixing and matching assignments.
That could have just been an excuse because the team sucked. But it was a sentiment often echoed by folks here and "experts" (radio pundits and the such).
I like Williams and his "go fuck 'em up" approach. His attitude is the right one. This thread is not aimed at pissing on him.
But if a group of aging veteran defenders couldn't figure out Jim O'Neil's "system", I fear a far worse situation with a group of rookies and second-year hopefuls deciphering one that seems... almost schizophrenic in (even just) what position one is expected to play from down to down.
Am I the only one hesitant about this? And if I am (and you're comfortable)... What inspires that confidence? What is unique in Williams' approach that makes it more user friendly than what we've seen in the past?
See ball, get ball doesn't sound too complicated for anyone playing with their head up.
Gregg Williams has way more experience as an NFL Defensive Coordinator than Jim O'Neil possessed coming here. He's experienced regime changes and rebuilds as well as has being a DC for 2 different Superbowl teams (TN & NO). O'Neil was in his first DC gig here, which was fine when we surprised everyone with a 7-4 start. However, when we regressed to losing 18 of the next 21 games - there was no way an inexperienced DC was going to keep the veteran/leadership buy-in. You can't regress to that level that abruptly (ie; we went 10-6 in 2007 & fired the GM down to the volunteer water boys after regressing to 5-11 in 2008).
Here's some random things I find interesting tied to Williams as DC:
In 2010, the 2nd year of Malcolm Jenkins' career with the Saints, he was moved from Corner to Free Safety in Gregg Williams' defense. He earned 2nd Team All Pro honors that year. That's an example of a young player/new starter in a new position that learned real fast in his system. Meanwhile DE Will Smith made the Pro Bowl in 2006.
Another young Safety he coached in Washington was Sean Taylor who made Pro Bowls in 2006 and 2007. The Redskins allowed just 19.4 points a game in his time as a DC and his D ranked 6th overall in that period. In 2005, his defense was a big reason Washington made the playoffs for the 1st time since 99.
In TN, he coached up Rookie DE Jevon Kearse to NFL Defensive Rookie of the Year with 14.5 sacks, 8 forced fumbles and 1 TD in 99. He also had a former Ball State Safety named Blaine Bishop make the Pro Bowl twice while he was DC in 1997 and 2000 and 2 other times whiles he was just an Assistant Defensive Coach in 95 & 96.
Even with the Rams in 2016, his defense finished in the top 10 in total defense and pass defense, During his 3 years with the Rams, they had 281 tackles for a loss (2nd most in the NFL). He helped Mark Barron find a perfect niche in his system.
Pertinent to our situation: Safeties always seem to do well in his system while a rookie DE (Kearse) and Will Smith made Pro Bowls. Williams has also successfully transitioned players from 1 position into another under his scheme so you that puts me at ease in terms of it not being too complicated for success.
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One reminder... Pet ran the D his 1st year here and left the O to Young Shanny... then young Shanny left for WSH and Pet moved his focus to the O.
That said...
I've little doubt that Williams' D is every bit as complex as Pet's was. The difference I think we'll see is aggression. As folks have said above Pet's was a read-n-react design; I see Gregg's as an attack-n-react approach.
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All NFL defenses have a degree of complexity. The diffrences are in assignments, alignments and responsibilities.
For example, under Coach Williams I would expect more 1gap along our dline and fewer 'heads up' alignments that 2gap or blended fronts tend to offer.
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The best defence is a good defense
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How do the Patriots do it year after year? Something tells me they bend but don't break. They have Balance on both sides of the ball. What good is a monster defense like the Broncos had last year if you lack an offence(offense)?
I can't remember the Patriots Defensive Coordinator's name but I have noticed he's turned down many head coaching jobs to collect Super Bowl Rings.
What the Browns need is continuity, they need to stop firing everyone after one or two years. We are in a rebuild and must stay the course with Hue, Williams, etc.
In the meantime it would be be extra Nice if Haslam developed a sudden urge to buy a yacht and sail around the world a few times! At least until after the 2018 season.
DAMN THE TORPEDOES! FULL SPEED AHEAD! -
sssssssssssssssssss
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How do the Patriots do it year after year? Something tells me they bend but don't break. They have Balance on both sides of the ball. What good is a monster defense like the Broncos had last year if you lack an offence(offense)?
I can't remember the Patriots Defensive Coordinator's name but I have noticed he's turned down many head coaching jobs to collect Super Bowl Rings.
What the Browns need is continuity, they need to stop firing everyone after one or two years. We are in a rebuild and must stay the course with Hue, Williams, etc.
In the meantime it would be be extra Nice if Haslam developed a sudden urge to buy a yacht and sail around the world a few times! At least until after the 2018 season.
How do the Patriots do it year after year? Something tells me they bend but don't break. They have Balance on both sides of the ball. What good is a monster defense like the Broncos had last year if you lack an offence(offense)?
I can't remember the Patriots Defensive Coordinator's name but I have noticed he's turned down many head coaching jobs to collect Super Bowl Rings.
Patricia... Matt Patricia... DC for the past few seasons, but he's been on the Pat's staff much longer than that.
If you look at the Belichick era, and especially the last decade, there is consistency on the D side, but less of it than has been displayed by the O side. So the pressure to score that the Pat's O puts on their opponents' has been a big factor.
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/nwe/
Plus, of course, there's Belichick... Parcel's disciple and his longtime, personal DC before Art gave him his first HC shot...
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How do the Patriots do it year after year? Something tells me they bend but don't break. They have Balance on both sides of the ball. What good is a monster defense like the Broncos had last year if you lack an offence(offense)?
I can't remember the Patriots Defensive Coordinator's name but I have noticed he's turned down many head coaching jobs to collect Super Bowl Rings.
What the Browns need is continuity, they need to stop firing everyone after one or two years. We are in a rebuild and must stay the course with Hue, Williams, etc.
In the meantime it would be be extra Nice if Haslam developed a sudden urge to buy a yacht and sail around the world a few times! At least until after the 2018 season.
How do the Patriots do it year after year? Something tells me they bend but don't break. They have Balance on both sides of the ball. What good is a monster defense like the Broncos had last year if you lack an offence(offense)?
I can't remember the Patriots Defensive Coordinator's name but I have noticed he's turned down many head coaching jobs to collect Super Bowl Rings.
What the Browns need is continuity, they need to stop firing everyone after one or two years. We are in a rebuild and must stay the course with Hue, Williams, etc.
In the meantime it would be be extra Nice if Haslam developed a sudden urge to buy a yacht and sail around the world a few times! At least until after the 2018 season.
Belichick is a good defensive coordinator...and would have his team's in contention. But if he did not have Tom Brady he would likely have -0- Super Bowl titles. Or 1. As much as there is an argument over things...I say that the old adage of "Defense wins championships" is only halfway right. Defense can put you in position to be a contender, and mistakes on defense can lose you a championship (see Atlanta Falcons).....but 80-90% of the time you still need that franchise QB. Yes, about 1 in8- 10 years a title can be won on the strength of a defense. (2000 Ravens, 2002 Bucs, 2005 Steelers, 1985 Bears), but you still need thatreal MAN who puts his hands up someone's butt.
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How do the Patriots do it year after year? Something tells me they bend but don't break. They have Balance on both sides of the ball. What good is a monster defense like the Broncos had last year if you lack an offence(offense)?
I can't remember the Patriots Defensive Coordinator's name but I have noticed he's turned down many head coaching jobs to collect Super Bowl Rings.
What the Browns need is continuity, they need to stop firing everyone after one or two years. We are in a rebuild and must stay the course with Hue, Williams, etc.
In the meantime it would be be extra Nice if Haslam developed a sudden urge to buy a yacht and sail around the world a few times! At least until after the 2018 season.
Belichick is a good defensive coordinator...and would have his team's in contention. But if he did not have Tom Brady he would likely have -0- Super Bowl titles. Or 1. As much as there is an argument over things...I say that the old adage of "Defense wins championships" is only halfway right. Defense can put you in position to be a contender, and mistakes on defense can lose you a championship (see Atlanta Falcons).....but 80-90% of the time you still need that franchise QB. Yes, about 1 in8- 10 years a title can be won on the strength of a defense. (2000 Ravens, 2002 Bucs, 2005 Steelers, 1985 Bears), but you still need thatreal MAN who puts his hands up someone's butt.
Belichick is a good defensive coordinator...and would have his team's in contention. But if he did not have Tom Brady he would likely have -0- Super Bowl titles.
It always makes me chuckle to hear how great coaches couldnt have done it w/o their great players.....go figure.....
Where would Walsh be w/o Montana?....or Noll w/o his 15 HOFers?......or Landry w/o Staubach?......or Johnson w/o all his HOFers?.....or Parcells w/o Taylor and Simms?.....or Levy w/o Kelly?.....
Thats how it rolls....great coaches win with great players.....and usually lose w/o em......
Bad coaches dont win with great players.....and always lose w/o em....
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Belichick is a good defensive coordinator...and would have his team's in contention. But if he did not have Tom Brady he would likely have -0- Super Bowl titles.
It always makes me chuckle to hear how great coaches couldnt have done it w/o their great players.....go figure.....
Where would Walsh be w/o Montana?....or Noll w/o his 15 HOFers?......or Landry w/o Staubach?......or Johnson w/o all his HOFers?.....or Parcells w/o Taylor and Simms?.....or Levy w/o Kelly?.....
Thats how it rolls....great coaches win with great players.....and usually lose w/o em......
Bad coaches dont win with great players.....and always lose w/o em....
It always makes me chuckle to hear how great coaches couldnt have done it w/o their great players.....go figure.....
Where would Walsh be w/o Montana?....or Noll w/o his 15 HOFers?......or Landry w/o Staubach?......or Johnson w/o all his HOFers?.....or Parcells w/o Taylor and Simms?.....or Levy w/o Kelly?.....
Thats how it rolls....great coaches win with great players.....and usually lose w/o em......
Bad coaches dont win with great players.....and always lose w/o em....
Agreed Mudsies! Well said. Just to piggy back here - and some GREAT coaches even start off like the following:
Tom Landry 0-11-1, in 1960
Chuck Noll 1-13, in 1969
Bill Walsh 2-14, in 1979
Bill Parcells 3-12-1, in 1983 (Lawrence Taylor was already there drafted in 1981 or it might have been much worse)
Jimmy Johnson 1-15, in 1989
Bill Belichick 6-10, in 1991
This doesn't pertain to you but how many of our fans wanted the exact same kind of new beginning chaos from the HC fired as early as 2 games into the last preseason.
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It always makes me chuckle to hear how great coaches couldnt have done it w/o their great players.....go figure.....
Where would Walsh be w/o Montana?....or Noll w/o his 15 HOFers?......or Landry w/o Staubach?......or Johnson w/o all his HOFers?.....or Parcells w/o Taylor and Simms?.....or Levy w/o Kelly?.....
Thats how it rolls....great coaches win with great players.....and usually lose w/o em......
Bad coaches dont win with great players.....and always lose w/o em....
Agreed Mudsies! Well said. Just to piggy back here - and some GREAT coaches even start off like the following:
Tom Landry 0-11-1, in 1960
Chuck Noll 1-13, in 1969
Bill Walsh 2-14, in 1979
Bill Parcells 3-12-1, in 1983 (Lawrence Taylor was already there drafted in 1981 or it might have been much worse)
Jimmy Johnson 1-15, in 1989
Bill Belichick 6-10, in 1991
This doesn't pertain to you but how many of our fans wanted the exact same kind of new beginning chaos from the HC fired as early as 2 games into the last preseason.
Agreed Mudsies! Well said. Just to piggy back here - and some GREAT coaches even start off like the following:
Tom Landry 0-11-1, in 1960
Chuck Noll 1-13, in 1969
Bill Walsh 2-14, in 1979
Bill Parcells 3-12-1, in 1983 (Lawrence Taylor was already there drafted in 1981 or it might have been much worse)
Jimmy Johnson 1-15, in 1989
Bill Belichick 6-10, in 1991
This doesn't pertain to you but how many of our fans wanted the exact same kind of new beginning chaos from the HC fired as early as 2 games into the last preseason.
Well.....while I am not an advocate for firing Hue....and wasnt last year either.....in fact, the last coach I actually wanted to see fired was Shurmur......
I think those that want to see Hue gone almost immediately are not using wins and losses as their basis.....but a sense that he just isnt a great coach.....Im in that group(not the fire him group.....but the he isnt a great coach group)
There is some hypocrisy to how things go with this....using Pettine as an example.....he was fired for winning only 3 games and not given any leeway for how terrible his roster was...or the massive injuries and/or ridiculous pressure foisted on him from our FO/JFF/Gordon etc......
Yet, Hue gets full freedom because he inherited a crap team....had injuries.....etc etc....
Heck....Pettine inherited crap and went out and won 7 out of his first 11 games.....with shitty players....no QB's,,,,,a thrown together coaching staff....everyone learning a new system.....QB controversies out the ying yang.....etc etc etc...
Hue had the same circumstances and won 1 game(out of 20).....
So....NOT pleading on about Pettine or slamming Hue....but only using them to show the convoluted hypocrisy and differences in how people have treated these staffs....both of which had extremely difficult circumstances to overcome....
Imagine if Hue won 7 games last year??....folks would be calling him HOF material.....then a year later, may want his head on a platter....
It's happened......
Recently even
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Agreed Mudsies! Well said. Just to piggy back here - and some GREAT coaches even start off like the following:
Tom Landry 0-11-1, in 1960
Chuck Noll 1-13, in 1969
Bill Walsh 2-14, in 1979
Bill Parcells 3-12-1, in 1983 (Lawrence Taylor was already there drafted in 1981 or it might have been much worse)
Jimmy Johnson 1-15, in 1989
Bill Belichick 6-10, in 1991
This doesn't pertain to you but how many of our fans wanted the exact same kind of new beginning chaos from the HC fired as early as 2 games into the last preseason.
Well.....while I am not an advocate for firing Hue....and wasnt last year either.....in fact, the last coach I actually wanted to see fired was Shurmur......
I think those that want to see Hue gone almost immediately are not using wins and losses as their basis.....but a sense that he just isnt a great coach.....Im in that group(not the fire him group.....but the he isnt a great coach group)
There is some hypocrisy to how things go with this....using Pettine as an example.....he was fired for winning only 3 games and not given any leeway for how terrible his roster was...or the massive injuries and/or ridiculous pressure foisted on him from our FO/JFF/Gordon etc......
Yet, Hue gets full freedom because he inherited a crap team....had injuries.....etc etc....
Heck....Pettine inherited crap and went out and won 7 out of his first 11 games.....with shitty players....no QB's,,,,,a thrown together coaching staff....everyone learning a new system.....QB controversies out the ying yang.....etc etc etc...
Hue had the same circumstances and won 1 game(out of 20).....
So....NOT pleading on about Pettine or slamming Hue....but only using them to show the convoluted hypocrisy and differences in how people have treated these staffs....both of which had extremely difficult circumstances to overcome....
Imagine if Hue won 7 games last year??....folks would be calling him HOF material.....then a year later, may want his head on a platter....
It's happened......
Recently even
Well.....while I am not an advocate for firing Hue....and wasnt last year either.....in fact, the last coach I actually wanted to see fired was Shurmur......
I think those that want to see Hue gone almost immediately are not using wins and losses as their basis.....but a sense that he just isnt a great coach.....Im in that group(not the fire him group.....but the he isnt a great coach group)
There is some hypocrisy to how things go with this....using Pettine as an example.....he was fired for winning only 3 games and not given any leeway for how terrible his roster was...or the massive injuries and/or ridiculous pressure foisted on him from our FO/JFF/Gordon etc......
Yet, Hue gets full freedom because he inherited a crap team....had injuries.....etc etc....
After going 10-6 in 2007 we regressed to 5-11 in 2008 causing the HC and FO to get fired. Pettine was fired for a similar regression as going from 7-4 to a 3-18 about-face pretty much slam dunked. When this happens there's a loss of support/buy-in from a significant # of veterans and team leaders meaning that staff lost much of the team regardless of how much you still want to fight people about it.
My speculation is an enormous part of that was from the inexperience of his hand selected Coordinators in 2015: Jim O'Neil and Flip. Another part of it all was reflected in Dansby's comment that they could see some spillover of the tension between Pet and Farmer onto the field visibly draining the HC (which you already kind of alluded to).
If Hue starts off 0-3 or 0-4, I can assure you he'll experience even less patience than people had for Pettine coming off 7-9 especially since Hue only went 1-15 in his first year. That won't reflect hypocrisy as much as the more things change - the more they stay the same. Again, people were already calling for Hue's head as early as his 2nd preseason game in season 1.
As for your opinion of Hue it differs from a lot of guys that played in Cincy such as Andrew Whitworth who was a 2nd Team All Pro in 2014 and 1st Team All Pro in 2015 (when they went 12-4) as well as a Captain. In 2016, Cincy went 6-9-1 looking like they really missed him. I don't mind trusting the feedback of someone that actually experienced his coaching and played his best football under it. Here's the link. https://www.cincyjungle.com/2016/1/13/10762862/bengals-react-to-hue-jackson-being-named-next-cleveland-browns-head
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The length of Hue's leash, and the factors that determine its length, is an interesting discussion. Here's my take...
Hue got freedom (a/k/a was cut an extra helping of "slack") due to a complete tear-down/rebuild approach we'd never taken before. I suspect that for that reason alone he was given a total pass on 2016. Add that the team never quit on him and won late to avoid the "0-fer" and I think him coming out with a slight positive is not out of the question.
So 2017 is year one. That makes Chud the only potentially applicable comparison. Personally I don't see a lot of Chud in Hue.
The most likely 2017 scenario is our records improves a little. Hard for it to get worse. Hard for me to see anything approaching .500. Four or five wins seem most likely. Vegas seems to agree given the 4.5 O/U for wins.
So we go into 2018 with no regression and no overachievement, a circumstance which befell both Butch and Pet. That leaves lack of continued progress in 2018 as Hue's stumbling block.
We shall see...
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
The length of Hue's leash, and the factors that determine its length, is an interesting discussion. Here's my take...
Hue got freedom (a/k/a was cut an extra helping of "slack") due to a complete tear-down/rebuild approach we'd never taken before. I suspect that for that reason alone he was given a total pass on 2016. Add that the team never quit on him and won late to avoid the "0-fer" and I think him coming out with a slight positive is not out of the question.
So 2017 is year one. That makes Chud the only potentially applicable comparison. Personally I don't see a lot of Chud in Hue.
The most likely 2017 scenario is our records improves a little. Hard for it to get worse. Hard for me to see anything approaching .500. Four or five wins seem most likely. Vegas seems to agree given the 4.5 O/U for wins.
So we go into 2018 with no regression and no overachievement, a circumstance which befell both Butch and Pet. That leaves lack of continued progress in 2018 as Hue's stumbling block.
We shall see...
The length of Hue's leash, and the factors that determine its length, is an interesting discussion. Here's my take...
Hue got freedom (a/k/a was cut an extra helping of "slack") due to a complete tear-down/rebuild approach we'd never taken before. I suspect that for that reason alone he was given a total pass on 2016. Add that the team never quit on him and won late to avoid the "0-fer" and I think him coming out with a slight positive is not out of the question.
So 2017 is year one. That makes Chud the only potentially applicable comparison. Personally I don't see a lot of Chud in Hue.
The most likely 2017 scenario is our records improves a little. Hard for it to get worse. Hard for me to see anything approaching .500. Four or five wins seem most likely. Vegas seems to agree given the 4.5 O/U for wins.
So we go into 2018 with no regression and no overachievement, a circumstance which befell both Butch and Pet. That leaves lack of continued progress in 2018 as Hue's stumbling block.
We shall see...
Well said! Tear-downs/start-overs with big draft volumes look to inexperience which breeds growing pains whether it's a Jimmy Johnson, Tom Landry, Chuck Noll, Bill Parcells, Bill Walsh (all of whom I posted rookie coaching records for in this thread) or just Hue Jackson at Head Coach. I'm looking for progress in year 2, which I think we'll see.
In terms of how much progress we will see, I'm just as wait and see on our QB situation as everyone else so you'll notice I'm never one that predicts how many games we will win. Of course, this can only mean 2 years from now my buddy Ghoolie will be announcing I guaranteed we'd be undefeated in 2017.
I measure Head Coaches like I measure QBs especially in terms of a guy can be a rookie of the year like Vince Young or RG3 or shock the world with 7-4 in Cleveland as a HC. However, today's NFL has much shorter windows so VY and RG3 are most remembered for what came after the rookie seasons. Regression. Nobody wanted to see Pettine fired when he was 7-4 or even 7-9. But he went 3-18 in his last 21 games, which our defense showed the tackling fundamentals of a youth football team when/if they were even in position to make the tackle - legit concerns were brought up. Both Coordinators were rookies and Pettine was only a soph so players and fans worried about the drastic regression snowballing. Today, if you lose the team - you're done. I don't want that to happen to Hue too but it can. It can go either way; but I have a good feeling about the players and coaches we have on board today.
I welcome the only Defensive Coordinator to earn a Superbowl Ring in New Orleans while understanding Revenge of the Nerds is a sequel. "Come get some!" -
The length of Hue's leash, and the factors that determine its length, is an interesting discussion. Here's my take...
Hue got freedom (a/k/a was cut an extra helping of "slack") due to a complete tear-down/rebuild approach we'd never taken before. I suspect that for that reason alone he was given a total pass on 2016. Add that the team never quit on him and won late to avoid the "0-fer" and I think him coming out with a slight positive is not out of the question.
So 2017 is year one. That makes Chud the only potentially applicable comparison. Personally I don't see a lot of Chud in Hue.
The most likely 2017 scenario is our records improves a little. Hard for it to get worse. Hard for me to see anything approaching .500. Four or five wins seem most likely. Vegas seems to agree given the 4.5 O/U for wins.
So we go into 2018 with no regression and no overachievement, a circumstance which befell both Butch and Pet. That leaves lack of continued progress in 2018 as Hue's stumbling block.
We shall see...
Well said! Tear-downs/start-overs with big draft volumes look to inexperience which breeds growing pains whether it's a Jimmy Johnson, Tom Landry, Chuck Noll, Bill Parcells, Bill Walsh (all of whom I posted rookie coaching records for in this thread) or just Hue Jackson at Head Coach. I'm looking for progress in year 2, which I think we'll see.
In terms of how much progress we will see, I'm just as wait and see on our QB situation as everyone else so you'll notice I'm never one that predicts how many games we will win. Of course, this can only mean 2 years from now my buddy Ghoolie will be announcing I guaranteed we'd be undefeated in 2017.
I measure Head Coaches like I measure QBs especially in terms of a guy can be a rookie of the year like Vince Young or RG3 or shock the world with 7-4 in Cleveland as a HC. However, today's NFL has much shorter windows so VY and RG3 are most remembered for what came after the rookie seasons. Regression. Nobody wanted to see Pettine fired when he was 7-4 or even 7-9. But he went 3-18 in his last 21 games, which our defense showed the tackling fundamentals of a youth football team when/if they were even in position to make the tackle - legit concerns were brought up. Both Coordinators were rookies and Pettine was only a soph so players and fans worried about the drastic regression snowballing. Today, if you lose the team - you're done. I don't want that to happen to Hue too but it can. It can go either way; but I have a good feeling about the players and coaches we have on board today.
Well said! Tear-downs/start-overs with big draft volumes look to inexperience which breeds growing pains whether it's a Jimmy Johnson, Tom Landry, Chuck Noll, Bill Parcells, Bill Walsh (all of whom I posted rookie coaching records for in this thread) or just Hue Jackson at Head Coach. I'm looking for progress in year 2, which I think we'll see.
In terms of how much progress we will see, I'm just as wait and see on our QB situation as everyone else so you'll notice I'm never one that predicts how many games we will win. Of course, this can only mean 2 years from now my buddy Ghoolie will be announcing I guaranteed we'd be undefeated in 2017.
I measure Head Coaches like I measure QBs especially in terms of a guy can be a rookie of the year like Vince Young or RG3 or shock the world with 7-4 in Cleveland as a HC. However, today's NFL has much shorter windows so VY and RG3 are most remembered for what came after the rookie seasons. Regression. Nobody wanted to see Pettine fired when he was 7-4 or even 7-9. But he went 3-18 in his last 21 games, which our defense showed the tackling fundamentals of a youth football team when/if they were even in position to make the tackle - legit concerns were brought up. Both Coordinators were rookies and Pettine was only a soph so players and fans worried about the drastic regression snowballing. Today, if you lose the team - you're done. I don't want that to happen to Hue too but it can. It can go either way; but I have a good feeling about the players and coaches we have on board today.
I am less concerned now that we have legitimate defensive and offensive talent in the trenches where football is won. And for sure a legitimate defensive coordinator where playoff teams are made. The future looks bright even if there are growing pains while they shape into that kind of team. I believe in defense first and foremost and that looks like the kind of team we are going after first. This is gonna have some real fun moments coming up this season where the home crowd is stomping in the stands to the beat of the whoofs!!
So who is going to set the odds on who gets the first strip sack/fumble recovery on this team? Ogbah? Peppers? Collins? Garrett?
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