The 'who have you watched lately?' thread.
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Maybe I'll just ask Dorsey politely, kind of like how Woody did with coach Williams and got Peppers last year.
#notbitteroranything
You just need to build the type of rapport with him like I did with Williams. The type of bonding that only comes from taking with him at the Auto Show
Sadly, they weren't there this year, or I would have brought up Hurst. (who PFF mocked to us at #4)
... Auto Show
I would have brought up Hurst.
As in Hurst shifter?
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You just need to build the type of rapport with him like I did with Williams. The type of bonding that only comes from taking with him at the Auto Show
Sadly, they weren't there this year, or I would have brought up Hurst. (who PFF mocked to us at #4)
so youre the reason why we drafted Peppers ?
so youre the reason why we drafted Peppers ?
Yes
Though I'm not the reason we played him out of position 30 yards away from the play.
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You just need to build the type of rapport with him like I did with Williams. The type of bonding that only comes from taking with him at the Auto Show
Sadly, they weren't there this year, or I would have brought up Hurst. (who PFF mocked to us at #4)
so youre the reason why we drafted Peppers ?
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So I decided to go back over Allen with a fine tooth comb. I know I said I wouldn't cover prospects I don't like, but I'm going to break that rule for this one. I'm going to do every game for 2017, take notes and give final impressions and I went with a random jumping off point - the Boise State game. Which I'm glad I did, there is a formation and route structure I immediately noticed within a couple minutes of this video I'm familiar with. Long winded post here, get some coffee and saddle up.
Starting @ the 1:03 mark. We call this Gun Flip offset, trips right. It's nice because it creates a quads situation where you can either catch the defense napping, setup some nice HB flares/bubbles, and you get a true 1v1 look on the backside. (All you Corey Coleman fans take note, this is what made him look all world at Baylor...)
Below is your typical smash-divide concept...
Reads go - Red: Primary Blue: Secondary Yellow: Alert/third and then checkdown. Grey/Black is a pre-snap check that the QB and WR work on. We have a series of hand signals to indicate a route if we get the look we want. The concept is simple and straight forward. Again, some of those are widely considered universal staples. The other stuff with the backside receiver and the alert read are different team to team. Point being, the primary and secondary are almost always the same. Formation strength goes to the field, gives our WR's room to run.
- Based off read corner/throw corner that sits over the top the #1WR. The Divide part route really stresses safeties into a choice and testing communication. If it's a 2 shell then it becomes who is playing the seam vs who is rotating outside a hash. This is where you get coverage rolls and key reads (I'll explain that in a post another time) but either way, vs a single high, that FS is forced to help the weak point of your coverage - the backer or safety on the #3. Especially in our offense where it's hard to get a clean disrupt being that our #3 is off the LOS.
Downside being a college coach is that your QB might not be quick at processing the info, might stare down a read, might not have a great arm and/or you might be facing some great DB's. The problem is that good corners will bait QB's into throwing that 7 route when they read hitch in front of them. You saw it a lot with Josh Norman, Darius Slay, ... basically defenses that play a solid amount of Cover 2 end up hitting you with cover 6 in these looks and your QB gets his butt handed to him ( including the Brownies at one point under finger Jauron) So you have to make that CB commit and help your QB out with something easy to read. Enter what the Cowboys (and many other teams) now do.
Instead of your #1 running 3/4 and a hitch, they'll run either a slant or a slant and square it off inside when reading zone vs man then build in a flat receiver as the checkdown. So a vertical stretch, an in and a flat. Triangle concept for the most part. Why? The CB has to either commit to man on his WR or make an under call to the interior defender now forcing a switch between the two then the CB has to go hard flat. It's a motherShmucker to cover, trust me. Granted, you don't see the Divide from the #3 run here in this example. He just B-lines for the inside backer and settles down in front of him. I thought it was going to be an over route, but either way it's effective.
Boise goes man the whole way that side when they see the motion. To their credit it's played with great discipline but this is where I stress about the quickness of your QB's eyes, his command of his own offense, and finally understanding and processing what is in front of him quickly. This is where I want you to run the tape back and look at it with me.
Again, starting with 1:03. Pre snap you see single high, CB's at 7 to 8 yards off, no bump, no re-route and the nearest safety help is on the other hash. Unless that's Earl Shmucking Thomas he ain't getting to my primary on the out.
- 1:04 - 1:05 the motion forces the OLB into man and across the board so you know your primary is still looking good.
- 1:05 to 1:06 is keying like we said earlier, read corner/throw corner. That safety isn't helping Sheet, snap of the ball he's getting width and depth but it doesn't matter. The CB has his weight over top over his feet, his hips square with the LOS and is driving forward at the #1's backpocket on the slant before Allen has even started his throwing motion. Keep in mind, at that same point, the #2 (primary) is breaking to the out 5 yards past the corner where he's vacated that space. I can't tell from this angle, but perhaps Josh did check his primary...? If he did then for whatever reason he didn't rip it. It was there. That DB covering our primary gave it to his receiver for the taking. Check out the DB's hips... with his back to the sideline at 1:07. The #2 (primary) was even nice enough to speed the out/round it out when the DB opened his hips. This should be routine for a senior QB no matter the receivers. You make that throw everytime.
- But what is worse and what should scare you more - Allen may have checked into that #1 WR the whole way and WAS STILL late with his delivery. IF that is the case, then that ball should be gone @ 1:06 just as the WR makes his break and placed to the receivers up field shoulder. That would demonstrate anticipation of the route and seeing coverage. Instead, JA double clutches, starts his throwing motion at 1:07 and the ball is in there in a hurry making contact with the receiver at the 1:08 tick. Boy can spin it, no Shmucking doubt. But, as what has showed up on tape and numerous times throughout the season, the ball is placed behind his receiver low and away AND late.
The former of those two would make more sense and reminds me of Tour's "flashes in front of him then throws" comments from the senior bowl. JA has the read, doesn't deliver, comes to his secondary late only when he sees him clear the LB and has already settled down. By that point the ball should have already been on it's way but instead the WR has to wait.
Josh has all the physical tools in the world. He's gifted in ways not many humans walk this earth are. But from what I saw initially, and what I'm starting to see at the very beginning of my 2nd looks... the mental aspect is something he's a long way off on. At least, with any kind of consistency. We're Cleveland fans, we hear all the time that Kosar was one of the most cerebral QB's in the game which is why he was able to overcome being a limited athlete with a funky throwing motion. This feels like the opposite of that. Oh, there goes that word again *consistency*. The one thing the greats all share. They'll hammer you time and time again and rarely make a mistake when you give them freebies like I've highlighted.
I'll have more to come throughout the week and weekend about Allen. But It's not like I don't want the kid for no reason. There appear to be several reasons and they're the ones that separate good QB's and average QB's.
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Thanks for the breakdown tia. Good to see some real football analysis on here. One of the things that separates Rosen from Allen is anticipation of the receiver coming open with the throw being made before it happens. Allen seems to need to see it happen first before he will throw. That won't cut it in the NFL. For the longer passes that translates to a sack or a DB interception.
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Agree.... for me it boils down to field vision. That was the hurdle Kizer ran up against and could not clear.
What tia describes cannot be taken in piecemeal and certainly cannot be complete if a QB only looks at his receivers. A QB has to take in blocks of info... areas of the field.... multiple targets and defenders (and their relationships to each other) in a glance.
In this draft only one of the top QBs displays field vision with any regularity.
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Another great example (or terrible depending on how you phrase it) is @ 4:20 in that same game about understanding what he see's post snap.
Initial look you have what appears to be a 0- man pressure the whole way. It's a nice move by the Broncos but it isn't like it's disguised so well like you can't see what is happening after the ball is in play. In this instance, as a QB, should this be a 6 man pressure and that both backers are coming at me, the OLB is unblocked thus is the one you're responsible for reading and throwing hot. That has to be in the back of your mind. Oline is going to worry about bottling up the interior stuff first and making the guy farthest outside get to your QB.
So you know have man across the board - a trend that Boise State had shown all game and you get a double move with your boundary #2 who gets matched on a safety. This is purely by design and great work done by the coaching staff to attack man coverage. The big responsibilities JA has here is 1 - identifying pressure... gotta make sure you have time to push the ball vertical; and 2 - identifying where the safety is should the backers not attack. You cannot float this ball up without the latter most especially, you simply cannot do it.
The MIKE is sitting hard in the A gap so I'm really not too worried about him affecting where the vertical threat will go. I still see man the whole way. Just need to know if he's shooting a gap. At the snap the OLB fly's to the field side #2 and the FS covering him rotates hard to center field, the MIKE immediately backs out and plays a middle field read. Granted seeing Boise St. defenders is a bitch on that turf - their unis and the field color are a gimmick that the NCAA simply shouldn't allow, but I digress. To their credit it's a good design and a great bait drawn up by the Boise coaches. But Allen's eyes again, NEVER leave his man. They don't look for a defender, they don't even check the interior or possible edge pressure. Cherry on top, you pump fake at your intended target and you STILL haven't checked the safety. Even then without the safety it's a ball that never would have been completed because it sailed on him but there is that issue rearing it's head again - when JA misses, he misses high.
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He's got 500 tomato plants to get in the ground. Got to take a couple days or so. That's a lot of holes to dig.
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But will he know how many holes it takes to fill the Albert Hall?
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
But will he know how many holes it takes to fill the Albert Hall?
Oh please don't finish that song. It'll go to his head.
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Oh please don't finish that song. It'll go to his head.
Better to be in his head than go to his head:
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Dan Orlovsky saw the same thing I did with the Boise State play and highlights same stuff
edit: Re: Allen
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Dan Orlovsky saw the same thing I did with the Boise State play and highlights same stuff
edit: Re: Allen
Dan Orlovsky saw the same thing I did with the Boise State play and highlights same stuff
Actually helped my Darnold acceptance factor...
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Dan Orlovsky saw the same thing I did with the Boise State play and highlights same stuff
Actually helped my Darnold acceptance factor...
Actually helped my Darnold acceptance factor...
I'm on the fence. If Dorsey is dead set on not taking Rosen then so be it. After all, it's his job on the line.
Darnold seems like the only pick of the "top 4" I wouldn't hate being a Browns fan about. Seems like a decent kid. Has the physical traits, has the arm and when he feet are set, has shown some good velocity and accuracy. Also can throw a decent ball while on the move. Mentally? I swear I see Grossman at times. He'll thread the needle one play and the next stare down his primary. As you said, he has been successful at times despite being flawed.
But there have been a couple flashes that at least make me pause and say "Ok, let me take another look". Did it with Allen just to confirm what I already knew. Did it with Mayfield and to a lesser extent Lamar for the same reasons.
Still not opposed to the 2 QB strategy and taking Benkert later
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And now Mayfield is emerging...
Man... I just spent yesterday getting comfortable with Darnold and was repelled by a couple recent Mayfield interviews.
I've got to work on my timing...
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
And now Mayfield is emerging...
Man... I just spent yesterday getting comfortable with Darnold and was repelled by a couple recent Mayfield interviews.
I've got to work on my timing...
And now Mayfield is emerging...
Man... I just spent yesterday getting comfortable with Darnold and was repelled by a couple recent Mayfield interviews.
I've got to work on my timing...
I don't have to look off field to be repelled by Mayfield.
He isn't Wilson and he sure as Sheet isn't Breesy. Any of those comparisons are misleading at best.
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