Jonathan Paul Manziel

hoorta

@everlastingxxx said:

When i watch video, it looks like Hoyer is quicker planting and throw than Manziel. Even on the WR quick throws he is fast.

Also, It seems like they are becoming friends or at least becoming friendly with each other. Which is good because Hoyer is a pro and can teach Johnny how to be one. Ill be honest, the more i hear Hoyer speak and play the more i like him. I just dont see him as having a big upside.

I won't go gushing about Hoyer- and you're probably right he's not going to get much better. Like I said- insufficient data to properly evaluate.

TXDawg is entitled to his opinion, so he loves JF because he saw him play- in Texas. Same thing here, Cleveland fans love it and pull for the local kid to make good. Sometimes it works out- Bernie Kosar. Sometimes it doesn't- Charlie Frye.

It was truly heartbreaking to see Le Charles Bentley (went to the same High School as Hoyer) blow out his knee and have his career ended the first day of Browns training camp.

Incidentally, Donte Whitner is another Cleveland guy.

Tour2ma

@hoorta said:
BTW, I didn't notice it, but Tour did- if you watch the side by side training camp footage, Hoyer was indeed unloading the ball significantly faster than Manziel.

Aw shucks tweren't nuttin'...

Finally heard one of the talking heads on NFL Network comment on it today. Of course it had to be Solomon Wilcots...

I've been puzzling over what the observation means. Since I do not believe that Hoyer is quicker than Manziel, I can only conclude that JM is not working as hard and/or taking the drill as seriously.

miktoxic

nfl network has been really pissing me off lately. on one hand they are quick to tear into manziel after his first press conf. of TC on friday, yet they replayed his interview like 5 times just to have everyone possible chime in either pro or negative.

so taoday they start off with how the QB competition in cleveland is going (3rd day?) and it's all pro hoyer and manziel came out and said some good things on sat. nite etc. etc. then they go to their QB competition footage and up on the big screen behind 2 doofuss analysts/ex-jocks have a pic of hoyer in a throwing pose and manziel in a pose....both wearing number 2. and what they were talking about in a QB competition soon becam a manziel highlight reel with nothing of hoyer.

so they can suck a nut too.

yeah txdawg can have his opinion, i just don't take too kindly to someone calling me a woman, especially from some drag queen butch from the worst state in the union.

WalterWhite

Hoyer will start and rightfully so, let Johnny get a year of NFL learning and playbook under his belt.

If Hoyer flops, you play Johnny.

I just hope when the Bills pick and someone like Winston, Hundley, and Mariota are there and we get a massive amount of picks for them.

Tour2ma

@douche-nozzle said:

Mental instability has no clock. If he is that spoiled and that much of a head case when he is "the show" can you imagine what he will be when he is carrying a clipboard?

Tick....tick....tick

Point was that it's old news... been hashed over here already... so you need fresher troll material.

@taco918 said:
He actually has a point but yeah fuck Texas.

The hometown boy point is legit, if it's anyone's sole basis for backing Hoyer. Personally I doubt it is. It's more like icing on the cake.

@everlastingxxx said:

When i watch video, it looks like Hoyer is quicker planting and throw than Manziel. Even on the WR quick throws he is fast.

Also, It seems like they are becoming friends or at least becoming friendly with each other. Which is good because Hoyer is a pro and can teach Johnny how to be one. Ill be honest, the more i hear Hoyer speak and play the more i like him. I just dont see him as having a big upside.

You may well be right about the upside... but until JM displays a basic proficiency at the pro level we won't get a chance to see it. Right now competency is the upside.

Agree that Hoyer's example, and friendly-ish approach, should both help JM. While the help may be somewhat limited by the competition, it's a far cry from Favre saying it was not his job to teach Rogers.

I'd be interested in your take as to why do you think Hoyer is quicker in the drill. Is it, as I wrote above, a matter of taking the drill seriously?

Tour2ma

@hoorta said:
I won't go gushing about Hoyer- and you're probably right he's not going to get much better. Like I said- insufficient data to properly evaluate.

Agree...

To me the questions are different...

With JM it's, "How good can he be?"

With BH it's, "How good is he?"

LovesJohnnysWood

Hopefully Hoyer will win the starting job and the Shits will trade Manziel, or just outright cut him.

At that point, hopefully a real champion like Pittsburgh will pick him up so he can wear out that Cleveland azz twice a year.

But be comforted...you douches know football because you haven't been worth a shit since before a lot of you were born.

Fuck Cleveland.

DieHardBrownsFan

Bye asswipe.

StocktonShorts

I had to sign up just for this thread.

I love Hoyer. Great guy. Been around Tom Brady which has to be pretty good for a career.

However the guy has started 4 games in his career. In 2 of them he wasn't that great, he was really good in a 3rd and in the 4th he tore his ACL after throwing 4 passes. His career numbers indicate he's not overly accurate (under 60% for career) and in case nobody noticed, Gordon and Cameron had pretty good seasons without him. Anyone ever think that they made Hoyer look a bit better than Hoyer made them look?

There is no real indication that Hoyer is a great, or even really good Quarterback, but he is discussed on here as if its Brett Favre holding off Aaron Rodgers. It is not that situation.

Now I do believe there is a contest to see who starts Week 1, but the job is Johnny Manziels. Thats why they took him. Hoyer is a placeholder no matter how you look at it or how long it takes. Whenever Johnny is ready, he's the QB and there's nothing Hoyer can really do about it aside from winning every game, and I don't think he's the level QB that is able to do that.

Tour2ma

@everlastingxxx said:
I think he is taking seriously. Hoyer has more experience taking the ball under center. More experience doing these type of drills. His internal clock is faster. Sometimes these guys from college have to adjust their internal clock to the speed of the game. I think its more of a compliment to Hoyers veteran experience.

Thanks... appreciate the answer. It could be as simple as drop-back reps. Had not considered that.

Will say that JM's release has impressed me. He comes as close to throwing from his right ear as any QB I've seen in a while and much better than I saw him throw at A&M. Makes for a very quick release...

hoorta

@stocktonshorts said:

I had to sign up just for this thread.

I love Hoyer. Great guy. Been around Tom Brady which has to be pretty good for a career.

However the guy has started 4 games in his career. In 2 of them he wasn't that great, he was really good in a 3rd and in the 4th he tore his ACL after throwing 4 passes. His career numbers indicate he's not overly accurate (under 60% for career) and in case nobody noticed, Gordon and Cameron had pretty good seasons without him. Anyone ever think that they made Hoyer look a bit better than Hoyer made them look?

There is no real indication that Hoyer is a great, or even really good Quarterback, but he is discussed on here as if its Brett Favre holding off Aaron Rodgers. It is not that situation.

Now I do believe there is a contest to see who starts Week 1, but the job is Johnny Manziels. Thats why they took him. Hoyer is a placeholder no matter how you look at it or how long it takes. Whenever Johnny is ready, he's the QB and there's nothing Hoyer can really do about it aside from winning every game, and I don't think he's the level QB that is able to do that.

Fair enough, but a little voice inside my head keeps saying- Kurt Warner, Kurt Warner.

Tour2ma

Was it something we said?

StocktonShorts

@hoorta said:
Fair enough, but a little voice inside my head keeps saying- Kurt Warner, Kurt Warner.

And that in turn is also fair enough, but the sample size is so small that almost no conclusions can be made. I've seen TJ Yates look like Kurt Warner for 2 games, its a common phenomenon.

I hope beyond hope Hoyer is the next Kurt Warner but if you're playing the odds...there's been a thousand QBs with similar starts to their career but only one turned into Kurt Warner.

I just question how much Hoyer love around here is really because people think hes a GREAT quarterback and how much is just disguised Manziel dislike.

miktoxic

i think it depends on where you come from, are you a college football enthusiast and what you feel is appropriate behavior on and off the field from someone that is going to be the leader of your favorite NFL team.

me i was born and raised an hour west of cleveland, so i don't know about the high school football mania that is there in cleveland and it's immediate suburbs. i just know what i grew up on. i never heard of brian hoyer until he joined the browns. after all the mis-steps in drafting QBs and signing old vets to have some guy that was an UDFA look as good as he did last year and play with as much confidence as he did (given VERY small sample size of games) but he cemented in my mind that if he could add one thing to his game, sliding (HA!) he could be a well-rounded starter for the browns.

of course i've heard of manziel. it started last year with the highlights on espn etc. of his games and his talent and ability and then kept going with his antics off the field. would i have rather seen the browns draft a receiver at 22, yep. but they chose to draft manziel. so now he is a cleveland brown, which means he will get my support no matter what and i want him to succeed because if he succeeds, the browns succeed. do i like what he does showing up on social media with all the selfies? hell no. do i like the fact that the browns fan base has been invaded by manziel fans with no regard for the team? no.

BUT like both QBs have said they want what's best for the team. and like the HC said whoever gives the TEAM the best chance to win will start. will it bother me if it's manziel over hoyer? no. vice versa? no.

i'm sure if the guy grew up in sandusky and played for my HS alma mater i'd be pushing harder for that guy. but from a fan who now lives outside of ohio.....just win, baby, win.

miktoxic

and if hoyer were out making an ass of himself, i'm sure there would be just as much criticism of him as there is manziel. people expect more from professionals. i know it's within manziel's rights to do what he wants in the off-season but wouldn't we all (as browns fans) see him on the path as a well-grounded professional who is not in the paparrazzi flash bulbs every 30 seconds?

you tell me.

StocktonShorts

Manziel was a celebrity in college, did you expect that to change? None of this off the field crap means anything, its all media fodder for them to fill in their 24 hour news cycle in June and July when there's NOTHING to talk about in the sports world. Manziels success will come down to his talent and not some Tiny Canadian Pussy Douche selfie. Brian Hoyer COULD do the exact same things as Manziel but nobody would ever know about ot because the national media doesnt care about Hoyer.

miktoxic

so now we know where you stand.

do you know anything about the browns? or care?

btw, any starting QB for a NFL team is a celebrity. what happens when it's not manziel?

Tour2ma

@stocktonshorts said:
I just question how much Hoyer love around here is really because people think hes a GREAT quarterback and how much is just disguised Manziel dislike.

So you are operating under the impression that people are shy around here? If so, then you have not been lurking for long.

Seriously I have yet to see anyone proclaim that Hoyer is a "great QB". Many, including me, think he showed promise during his all too brief appearance in 2013. Our offense never looked better than it did with him under center.

As for Manziel dislike... I don't know him, therefore I cannot dislike him. What I can do is dislike some of his behaviors. They're not the same thing. Just as mik said above... I did not want to draft him. but he's a Brown now.

I've been on record since the draft as saying our game one starter will be Brian. So far I've seen no reason to change my prediction.

I based my prediction on BH's professionalism vs. JM's immaturity and inexperience. The former is a game manager who has learned to control his competitiveness under fire; the latter... not so much... not yet anyway.

To the extent that this team will win in 2014 it will be through ball control and Defense. And for that you need a game manager.

StocktonShorts

@miktoxic said:

so now we know where you stand.

do you know anything about the browns? or care?

btw, any starting QB for a NFL team is a celebrity. what happens when it's not manziel?

Some would say I know a bit, yes. Some would say I am born into caring quite a bit, yes.

Manziels behavior is not unusual, it's just public. People love the guy, he gets ratings, so he's always a hot topic. Mix that into the dead season of sports where ESPN needs content and you have people asking to purchase any picture of Manziel doing anything just so they can talk about it. Good thing about Manziel is you know exactly what he's doing because he can't get away with anything.

Joe Montana had a problem early in his career, he's discussed it. Marino too. What do you think Bernie was like in the 80's (and today). Tom Brady dated a actress with a former drug issue, had a kid with her while dating a Brazilian Supermodel. What do you think Tom Bradys younger days were like? The only difference is they weren't public, they didn't have to deal with instagram or even ESPN creating news.

People who think what Manziel does is somehow way over board are extremely naive. The attention he gets is what is rare and unusual, but that has zero to do with if he's a good quarterback or not.

StocktonShorts

@tour2ma said:

So you are operating under the impression that people are shy around here? If so, then you have not been lurking for long.

Seriously I have yet to see anyone proclaim that Hoyer is a "great QB". Many, including me, think he showed promise during his all to brief appearance in 2013. Our offense never looked better than it did with him under center.

As for Manziel dislike... I don't know him, therefore I cannot dislike him. What I can do is dislike some of his behaviors. They're not the same thing. Just as mik said above... I did not want to draft him. but he's a Brown now.

I've been on record since the draft as saying our game one starter will be Brian. So far I've seen no reason to change my prediction.

I based my prediction on BH's professionalism vs. JM's immaturity and inexperience. The former is a game manager who has learned to control his competitiveness under fire; the latter... not so much... not yet anyway.

To the extent that this team will win in 2014 it will be through ball control and Defense. And for that you need a game manager.

Once again what leads you to believe Hoyer is this sure thing? A great game manager? The guy played two full games last year, one of them he was good, the other he threw 3 interceptions. Neither did he complete a high % of passes. Oh and that makes up 2/3rds of the total games he completed in his entire career.

So once again where does the "Well Hoyer is a sure thing" attitude come from? He looked good last year, in Norv Turners offense, with players that were awesome even without Hoyer in there. So....how are you so positive that Hoyer is any good at all, let alone this expert "Game Manager" that can lead the Browns to a winning record? Theres been zero proof of that. Not only does Hoyer have barely more starting experience than Manziel does, but he's also coming off a torn ACL. Also in a new offense.

Where does this sentiment that Hoyer is this QB master come from?