Jonathan Paul Manziel
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The key difference is that 20 passes is not an adequate minimum to determine anything......the whole season hoyer sucked for to place him at the very bottom of the league is adequate.
That's why on official stats you will find hoyer at the bottom and not manziel. Because hoyer had a ton of playing time and attempts.
2013
Hoyer 3-0 W-L, 82.6 Rating
Campbell 1-7 W-L, 76.9 Rating
Weeden 0-5 W-L, 70.3 Rating
2014
Hoyer 7-6 W-L, 76.5 Rating
Shaw 0-1 W-L, 55.2 Rating
Manziel 0-2 W-L, 42.0 Rating
So, yes, compared to rest of the league his passing numbers were sub-par. But he was clearly the most effective QB on the Browns roster each year. Yeah, he is a backup quality QB, but he was the best we had and the offense, and QB play, was putrid without him.
So why rip on the one guy that at least helped us be competitive when there were no better answers on the roster?
So maybe Brian Hoyer is the 40th best QB in the NFL ... that would make him one of the top backups in the league. A guy you can start until you find better. That's all he was. The problem is that we didn't find better.
The problem is that first round pick Weeden busted. And first round pick Manziel was not prepared to play the position at the NFL level.
And even former first round pick Campbell did worse than Hoyer.
The problem is not that the undrafted free agent journeyman played like a competent backup, the problem is that the guys who were supposed to become the starters, played worse than the undrafted free agent journeyman.
We get it. Hoyer's a backup. He can win a few games in a stretch for you, but he is no franchise QB. We understand that. He shouldn't be starting. The problem is that the guys we brought in to be the franchise QB are so awful that we has continued to be our best option.
Let's not blame the career backup for playing like a backup. Let's get pissed because he was so much better than everybody else on our roster that two years.
We are spending first round picks on QBs and they can't beat out Brian Freaking Hoyer. That's the problem.
Zombo
Zombo said:
We are spending first round picks on QBs and they can't beat out Brian Freaking Hoyer. That's the problem.Oh no you didn't!
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.........Let us remember that prior to arriving in Cleveland Manziel was renowned for having a terrific work-ethic exemplified by his tutelage under George Whitfield each summer in San Diego. Whereas a large portion of college athletes returned home or worked summer jobs, Manziel willingly sought out a well regarded QB guru and leveraged this relationship in his committment to get better.........
Then JFF needs to ask for his money back. Apparently, by his on field play, George Whitfield taught him nothing!!
Then JFF needs to ask for his money back. Apparently, by his on field play, George Whitfield taught him nothing!!
Oh no! Not Whitfield! The same guy that thought EJ Manuel was going to be something??!??!
I mean c'mon! Does anyone expect anything out of Whitfield beside praised for his clients. He's paid to hype his students.
This guy said Manziel was the best of the bunch. Oh right..sure. Better than Luck? Pure BS.
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Well only one of two possible ways to explain the Friday night party and subsequent 3 no-shows.
1. All 3 got to be the stupidest highly paid athletes on the face of the planet and all happen to be on one team and were keeping their stupidity in sync
or
2. All 3 were informed earlier in the week they would no longer be with the Browns in 2015 and would be shopped around, so they just don't give a shit anymore
Whatever it was it's obvious now all 3 are gone next season from this team. And at this point in time I agree it would be for the betterment of the Browns to part company.
Well only one of two possible ways to explain the Friday night party and subsequent 3 no-shows.
1. All 3 got to be the stupidest highly paid athletes on the face of the planet and all happen to be on one team and were keeping their stupidity in sync
or
2. All 3 were informed earlier in the week they would no longer be with the Browns in 2015 and would be shopped around, so they just don't give a shit anymore
Whatever it was it's obvious now all 3 are gone next season from this team. And at this point in time I agree it would be for the betterment of the Browns to part company.
yeah i think at least 2 will be gone....pothead and shrinkcase.......i'd like to see little chonnie gone also cause he's too small in size and in brain...plus he stinks, ....the only reason i can see all three of these players acting up like this is because they don't like coachie coach...so who is going to go..we no pettine isn't, i guess...bottom line is this really sucks, if we were in a division with jax, oakland and tampa bay we'd have time to recover, but folks, we are in a division with 3 of the best organizations in the nfl....CAN YOU SAY CELLAR DWELLERS FOR QUITE A LONG TIME....
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Well only one of two possible ways to explain the Friday night party and subsequent 3 no-shows.
1. All 3 got to be the stupidest highly paid athletes on the face of the planet and all happen to be on one team and were keeping their stupidity in sync
or
2. All 3 were informed earlier in the week they would no longer be with the Browns in 2015 and would be shopped around, so they just don't give a shit anymore
Whatever it was it's obvious now all 3 are gone next season from this team. And at this point in time I agree it would be for the betterment of the Browns to part company.
yeah i think at least 2 will be gone....pothead and shrinkcase.......i'd like to see little chonnie gone also cause he's too small in size and in brain...plus he stinks, ....the only reason i can see all three of these players acting up like this is because they don't like coachie coach...so who is going to go..we no pettine isn't, i guess...bottom line is this really sucks, if we were in a division with jax, oakland and tampa bay we'd have time to recover, but folks, we are in a division with 3 of the best organizations in the nfl....CAN YOU SAY CELLAR DWELLERS FOR QUITE A LONG TIME....
yeah i think at least 2 will be gone....pothead and shrinkcase.......i'd like to see little chonnie gone also cause he's too small in size and in brain...plus he stinks, ....the only reason i can see all three of these players acting up like this is because they don't like coachie coach...so who is going to go..we no pettine isn't, i guess...bottom line is this really sucks, if we were in a division with jax, oakland and tampa bay we'd have time to recover, but folks, we are in a division with 3 of the best organizations in the nfl....CAN YOU SAY CELLAR DWELLERS FOR QUITE A LONG TIME....
This negative fuck still here?
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.........Let us remember that prior to arriving in Cleveland Manziel was renowned for having a terrific work-ethic exemplified by his tutelage under George Whitfield each summer in San Diego. Whereas a large portion of college athletes returned home or worked summer jobs, Manziel willingly sought out a well regarded QB guru and leveraged this relationship in his committment to get better.........
Then JFF needs to ask for his money back. Apparently, by his on field play, George Whitfield taught him nothing!!
Then JFF needs to ask for his money back. Apparently, by his on field play, George Whitfield taught him nothing!!
Well, this leads to the frustration felt by most rational fans that know Manziel has the arm, legs, and mental capacity necessary to be a successful starting quarterback in the NFL, unfortunately none of which appeared during the two Sundays that mattered most in 2014. Johnny was never going to be as good as some made him seem but he also shouldn't be as bad as he played against the Bengals. He does have attributes that made and still make him an attractive prospect as the long-term solution at quarterback.
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Then JFF needs to ask for his money back. Apparently, by his on field play, George Whitfield taught him nothing!!
Well, this leads to the frustration felt by most rational fans that know Manziel has the arm, legs, and mental capacity necessary to be a successful starting quarterback in the NFL, unfortunately none of which appeared during the two Sundays that mattered most in 2014. Johnny was never going to be as good as some made him seem but he also shouldn't be as bad as he played against the Bengals. He does have attributes that made and still make him an attractive prospect as the long-term solution at quarterback.
Well, this leads to the frustration felt by most rational fans that know Manziel has the arm, legs, and mental capacity necessary to be a successful starting quarterback in the NFL, unfortunately none of which appeared during the two Sundays that mattered most in 2014. Johnny was never going to be as good as some made him seem but he also shouldn't be as bad as he played against the Bengals. He does have attributes that made and still make him an attractive prospect as the long-term solution at quarterback.
Enlighten us on those attributes.
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Moving beyond the 7 quarters of professional football...
Quite simply, Johnny Manziel is losing the battle of public perception and that is why many fans are up in arms. As fans, we are at the mercy of whatever information the news outlets feed us and we've become almost conditioned to see, hear, and read the sensationalist mantra that drives user-clicks and ad sales. Tell me that Johnny is riding an inflatable swan while clutching a bottle of champagne and Joe Sixpack will bite, yet print an article detailing his car arriving before schedule every morning in Berea and he'll pass it over. Heck, at this point is has become a self-fullfilling prophecy for critics because anytime Manziel does enjoy himself the moment will instantly be captured and blown up via social media, without mention of any other athlete doing the same.
Let us remember that prior to arriving in Cleveland Manziel was renowned for having a terrific work-ethic exemplified by his tutelage under George Whitfield each summer in San Diego. Whereas a large portion of college athletes returned home or worked summer jobs, Manziel willingly sought out a well regarded QB guru and leveraged this relationship in his committment to get better. Are we to believe that this dedicated approach to the sport was disregarded once Johnny was selected by Cleveland? I think it would be foolish to jump to that conclusion at such a nascent point in Manziel's professional career.
Truth be told, I'd argue that we will glean little insight into Johnny's development as a football player this offseason through whatever is reflected in the tabloids or newspaper because there is no way to quantify improvement until we see him step onto a football field next year. We simply do not know what work, and the utility of that work, Manziel is putting in from 9-9 or whenever. Is Manziel more committed to the Browns by drinking in the privacy of his home rather than at a bar? The next time that we see Manziel in Vegas are we going to argue that he'd become a better football player if he instead was flipping burgers at a casual backyard BBQ? I would hope not (but we will) because its an ignorant leap in logic. The professional athletes that we cheer for are not robots and do enjoy lives outside of sport. We are but given a small window, 19 weeks if we're lucky, of which to view them. The priviledge of hindsight offers that the Roethlisberger's, and Favre's, and Brady's, and Manning's did alright for themselves but lest we recall that winning has a way of curing any reasonable suspicion or care for how players utilize their personal time. And therein lays the dangers of perception that we, as fans, always struggle to interpret.
Farmer, Pettine, and the decision makers within the front-office should have the purest insight into Manziel's character, abilities, and work habits, so as difficult as it may seem at times I would argue that we should defer to their assessment of Johnny. My hope is that Johnny puts in the time and effort that will most certainly not be acknowledged by media outlets, and I will temper my judgement when his extraneous and irrevalent social exploits become media fodder.
Let us remember that prior to arriving in Cleveland Manziel was renowned for having a terrific work-ethic exemplified by his tutelage under George Whitfield each summer in San Diego.
Truth be told, I'd argue that we will glean little insight into Johnny's development as a football player this offseason through whatever is reflected in the tabloids or newspaper because there is no way to quantify improvement until we see him step onto a football field next year. We simply do not know what work, and the utility of that work, Manziel is putting in from 9-9 or whenever.
I've got your ignorant leap of logic right here...
Amazing how in retrospect we can know what we cannot know in real time.
Amazing how we can be impressed by dedicated work with a QB guru that never materialized.
Amazing how we praise "a before schedule arrival" with no knowledge of how the time was used and less evidence that it was used well.
Found this article today:
Although Mr and Mrs Cleaver could see right through Eddie Haskell...
That is freakin' scary...
And of course the Browns are looking for another quarterback. Brian Hoyer, according to most of you guys and the commentators, wants to go somewhere he will be guaranteed a starting job.
If he signs with us, I guarantee he starts. He now knows he was the best we had all along.
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Before anyone say another word about Manziel needing to change.
Read this.
"Johnny Manziel: I'm not going to change for anybody"
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So you say the browns could sign him as the starter.
Does that mean you believe johnny is a capable backup or that they will cut him and try to sign one of the other available vets as plan B?
WSS
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Since they improved by a 2-3 game margin I find it difficult to come to the conclusion they set themselves back
They also fell apart at the end of the season. Regression...
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Shaw's closer to a capable backup at the moment than Johnny, so, maybe Johnny will clear waivers for the practice squad.
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He has all the makings of being one of the biggest busts ever but he doesn't seem to get it. I think he needs drug/alcohol counseling and some professional counseling as well.
He has all the makings of being one of the biggest busts ever but he doesn't seem to get it. I think he needs drug/alcohol counseling and some professional counseling as well.
jamarcus Russell anyone.
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Since they improved by a 2-3 game margin I find it difficult to come to the conclusion they set themselves back
They also fell apart at the end of the season. Regression...
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Well no hoyer didn't beat manziel out. He beat manziel out initially, but then manziel became the starter until he got hurt. The younger qb with more upside did eventually ascend to being the starter. As expected.
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Well no hoyer didn't beat manziel out. He beat manziel out initially, but then manziel became the starter until he got hurt. The younger qb with more upside did eventually ascend to being the starter. As expected.
Well no hoyer didn't beat manziel out. He beat manziel out initially, but then manziel became the starter until he got hurt. The younger qb with more upside did eventually ascend to being the starter. As expected.
Actually Hoyer outplayed Manziel to be the starter this year. The browns only turned to Manziel once the playoffs were pretty much not a possibility. The browns wanted to start Manziel earlier but couldn't because he sucked donkey balls.. It doesn't matter how young you are. If you suck.. You suck.
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I don't despise anyone that I have never met, and only read about on the Browns Board, TMZ or heard on the news. I do think he needs to get his shit together ASAP. I think some of the anti-JFF posters are much worse then the JFF fanboys.
I don't despise anyone that I have never met, and only read about on the Browns Board, TMZ or heard on the news. I do think he needs to get his shit together ASAP. I think some of the anti-JFF posters are much worse then the JFF fanboys.
First... love "The Last Detail"... quintessential Nicholson before he became a movie star.
Second, in either direction on any topic there is an irrational tipping point. Some topics are just more polarizing than others.
Well no hoyer didn't beat manziel out. He beat manziel out initially, but then manziel became the starter until he got hurt. The younger qb with more upside did eventually ascend to being the starter. As expected.
Anyone with an ounce of objectivity saw that Hoyer lost the job. Manziel won nothing. Manziel showed in his only start why he was behind a declining Hoyer for so many weeks. And once Manziel went down, roughly a minute and a half into that second start, Hoyer showed he was still the better QB.
Haven't seen so much twistin' since Chubby Checker debuted on American Bandstand...
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Here is proof JF is putting extra time to get the Browns into the playoffs next year.
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Here is proof JF is putting extra time to get the Browns into the playoffs next year.
Here is proof JF is putting extra time to get the Browns into the playoffs next year.
Finally a gig has good at. Acting like a Retard. Shouldn't be too hard for him to get into character.
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Here is proof JF is putting extra time to get the Browns into the playoffs next year.
Here is proof JF is putting extra time to get the Browns into the playoffs next year.
Fits right in with the idiot role.
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Well, this leads to the frustration felt by most rational fans that know Manziel has the arm, legs, and mental capacity necessary to be a successful starting quarterback in the NFL, unfortunately none of which appeared during the two Sundays that mattered most in 2014. Johnny was never going to be as good as some made him seem but he also shouldn't be as bad as he played against the Bengals. He does have attributes that made and still make him an attractive prospect as the long-term solution at quarterback.
Enlighten us on those attributes.
Enlighten us on those attributes.
Sure.
- Quick release
- Arm strength
- Speed
- Agility
- Intelligence (if you believe that the Wonderlic has any predictive power?)
At the onset, you dont need to be Bill Polian to objectively realize that Manziel can make all of the throws that an NFL quarterback needs to make. Manziel's harshest critics have never questioned his ability to quickly spin the football downfield. We also know that Johnny has reasonable mobility and athleticism of which defenses will need to account for on some level. Unfortunately, these abilities and a pulse might be enough to get you drafted by Al Davis or the starting gig in Chicago but it's all for naught if you cannot read a defense and/or deliver the ball accurately.
Charlie Casserly, well respected within NFL circles and a recent hire of the Jets (and a former professor of mine), had been vocal for quite some time that he felt Manziel has the physical attributes to be a successful quarterback but his challenge will be in developing the pocket presence necessary to thrive within the confines of an NFL offense. Does this critique ring familiar to any of us that watched Manziel this season? Johnny enters a game against Buffalo in relief of Hoyer and rifles an otherwise ill-advised pass to Dray before capping off the drive with a touchdown run. In one drive we saw the physical promise of Manziel but we also got a glimpse of the mental shortcomings that would plague the next six quarters of his play. Such is life as a rookie quarterback in the NFL.
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