Jamie Collins
-
If you can bring in better, ship him, if you can't, keep him.
-
Avery was great
Yea, if you ignore his next-to-last rating against the pass.
Kirksey got hurt the Chiefs game, and didn’t play the last 6-7 games. He’s gonna be back next year and do some good things
And was below league average [46.1 on PFF] before he got hurt. His season before was the aberration, not the rule. His actual value is nowhere near the contract he was given.
Put away the rose-colored glasses and evaluate the reality of the players we have. At no point do i not appreciate their dedication and sacrifice... they're just not good enough.
One long-term problem this organization has faced is actually drafting LB.. the last 3 LB's we drafted in the first round have all been busts [Craig Powell was the last 1st-round pick before we were Modelled, then Wimbley and Mingo]
Yea, if you ignore his next-to-last rating against the pass.
And was below league average [46.1 on PFF] before he got hurt. His season before was the aberration, not the rule. His actual value is nowhere near the contract he was given.
Put away the rose-colored glasses and evaluate the reality of the players we have. At no point do i not appreciate their dedication and sacrifice... they're just not good enough.
I’m not opposed to acquiring a stud LB through draft or FA but currently I feel the DT opposite to Larry Ogunjobi is the main priority.
What I don’t think a lot of people don’t get about Kirksey and his contact is that it seems potential based.
4 years: 6 mil/year, 8 mil, 10 mil, 10.5 mil. He is a physically gifted player, and it has shown throughout his career. By the time he’s making that money, he’ll be making plays. He has been a Brown his whole career.
-
Yea, if you ignore his next-to-last rating against the pass.
And was below league average [46.1 on PFF] before he got hurt. His season before was the aberration, not the rule. His actual value is nowhere near the contract he was given.
Put away the rose-colored glasses and evaluate the reality of the players we have. At no point do i not appreciate their dedication and sacrifice... they're just not good enough.
I’m not opposed to acquiring a stud LB through draft or FA but currently I feel the DT opposite to Larry Ogunjobi is the main priority.
What I don’t think a lot of people don’t get about Kirksey and his contact is that it seems potential based.
4 years: 6 mil/year, 8 mil, 10 mil, 10.5 mil. He is a physically gifted player, and it has shown throughout his career. By the time he’s making that money, he’ll be making plays. He has been a Brown his whole career.
I’m not opposed to acquiring a stud LB through draft or FA but currently I feel the DT opposite to Larry Ogunjobi is the main priority.
What I don’t think a lot of people don’t get about Kirksey and his contact is that it seems potential based.
4 years: 6 mil/year, 8 mil, 10 mil, 10.5 mil. He is a physically gifted player, and it has shown throughout his career. By the time he’s making that money, he’ll be making plays. He has been a Brown his whole career.
All that said if White from LSU is still there @ #17, we've got to take him. The guy is the next MLB dominator. And I hope we seriously consider moving up to take him if we have not done anything in FA.
-
Good is the key word in your statement. Good players shouldn't count almost $12 million against the cap, at least IMO. If he's down to restructure that's awesome but I'd have zero qualms cutting the cord. A group with Joe, Kirksey, Avery, insert FA and a top round pick would be just fine with me.
Isn’t he the only super bowl vet we have?
I was upset with his effort at times but Collins is a talented/experienced LB and we need those.
Isn’t he the only super bowl vet we have?
I was upset with his effort at times but Collins is a talented/experienced LB and we need those.
Eh, I'm not sure how much that matters really.
Let me put it a different way. Going into the season Collins was the 7th highest paid player at the position. The guys above him? Von Miller, Justin Houston, Melvin Ingram, Robert Quinn, and Clay Matthews. The two guys below him are Kuechly and Nick Perry
Do you (you being figurative here) really see Jamie Collins in that group of people? I sure as hell don't. As noted, with guys we're going to need to pay in the current 4 year salary cap period, paying this dude almost $12 million for decent, but not great, play doesn't add up. I'd be very surprised to see him on his current deal next year.
-
I can’t remember how many times I’ve seen a center or nose guard take plays off. Lazy bastards!
I can’t remember how many times I’ve seen a center or nose guard take plays off. Lazy bastards!
You might if you ever watched the line play instead of following the ball.
I suppose you don't remember ever seeing an NT/DT trot off the field when it's 3rd and long either...
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Isn’t he the only super bowl vet we have?
I was upset with his effort at times but Collins is a talented/experienced LB and we need those.
Eh, I'm not sure how much that matters really.
Let me put it a different way. Going into the season Collins was the 7th highest paid player at the position. The guys above him? Von Miller, Justin Houston, Melvin Ingram, Robert Quinn, and Clay Matthews. The two guys below him are Kuechly and Nick Perry
Do you (you being figurative here) really see Jamie Collins in that group of people? I sure as hell don't. As noted, with guys we're going to need to pay in the current 4 year salary cap period, paying this dude almost $12 million for decent, but not great, play doesn't add up. I'd be very surprised to see him on his current deal next year.
Eh, I'm not sure how much that matters really.
Let me put it a different way. Going into the season Collins was the 7th highest paid player at the position. The guys above him? Von Miller, Justin Houston, Melvin Ingram, Robert Quinn, and Clay Matthews. The two guys below him are Kuechly and Nick Perry
Do you (you being figurative here) really see Jamie Collins in that group of people? I sure as hell don't. As noted, with guys we're going to need to pay in the current 4 year salary cap period, paying this dude almost $12 million for decent, but not great, play doesn't add up. I'd be very surprised to see him on his current deal next year.
We paid what we needed to pay at the time to keep a quality player in CLE. Remember we traded for him in a contract year and we not anywhere near "good" at the time... not really the way to judge him.
As for your comps, five rush artists and two MLBs, kinda apples and oranges there. He's never been given any of those roles on a full time basis. Had he been would he have shown as brightly? Doubtful as he doesn't seem to have the first step those guys do, but not impossible to imagine.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
That he wouldn't play hard after getting paid. I think there's some truth to that. Collins had games where he was everywhere, and others I didn't hear his name. There are other problems with him, too. For one, he was number 4 in the LEAGUE in missed tackles (according to PFF. Schobert was 1st. Yeesh). The other thing is missed big plays. Jamie Collins dropped two pick-6 interceptions, one was the easiest you've ever seen. I forget the exact games, but those were EXACTLY the plays our money was supposed to buy. Game-changing plays. We didn't get those.
Dorsey couldn't rebuild the worst team ever in 1 year, but he was pretty close.
Somebody made a good point the other day. If we had a top 5 kicker, we're probably 10-6. Not having a quality kicker changed how we played.
I can see through his “lack of” effort. He got traded to the F’n Browns guys. Let’s take off those Brownie/orange shades.
He was playing soft to avoid injury on a “bad” team. He played hard in the ATL game when the team started to figure out: “hey, we don’t suck”
one pick was the raiders game, he alligator armed a huge int(tough play) and the other he dropped a Driskell pick 6 at Cinci for sure. He doesn’t have great hands.
Dont get it confused, the roster was semi built with a #1 and #4 overall picks, Dorsey is a smart business man by coming to Cleveland to work his magic.
If we had a kicker(Greg Joseph has a future) we’d still have Hue.. so I’m ok with the end result....
I can see through his “lack of” effort. He got traded to the F’n Browns guys. Let’s take off those Brownie/orange shades.
He was playing soft to avoid injury on a “bad” team. He played hard in the ATL game when the team started to figure out: “hey, we don’t suck”
one pick was the raiders game, he alligator armed a huge int(tough play) and the other he dropped a Driskell pick 6 at Cinci for sure. He doesn’t have great hands.
Dont get it confused, the roster was semi built with a #1 and #4 overall picks, Dorsey is a smart business man by coming to Cleveland to work his magic.
If we had a kicker(Greg Joseph has a future) we’d still have Hue.. so I’m ok with the end result....
Came to this thread late, but that's the same way I feel. He looked amazing vs the Falcons, and played well every game after it.
I'm not crazy about him but agree with others, there's no rush to dump him until the decisions on coaching staff are made.
-
I can’t remember how many times I’ve seen a center or nose guard take plays off. Lazy bastards!
You might if you ever watched the line play instead of following the ball.
I suppose you don't remember ever seeing an NT/DT trot off the field when it's 3rd and long either...
You might if you ever watched the line play instead of following the ball.
I suppose you don't remember ever seeing an NT/DT trot off the field when it's 3rd and long either...
I’ll ask. I know a long time pro NG. QBs must be good at faking it too. Taking plays off in the pros? It happens. Then they’re ex pros. But I will ask oh arrogant all knowing one
-
Eh, I'm not sure how much that matters really.
Let me put it a different way. Going into the season Collins was the 7th highest paid player at the position. The guys above him? Von Miller, Justin Houston, Melvin Ingram, Robert Quinn, and Clay Matthews. The two guys below him are Kuechly and Nick Perry
Do you (you being figurative here) really see Jamie Collins in that group of people? I sure as hell don't. As noted, with guys we're going to need to pay in the current 4 year salary cap period, paying this dude almost $12 million for decent, but not great, play doesn't add up. I'd be very surprised to see him on his current deal next year.
We paid what we needed to pay at the time to keep a quality player in CLE. Remember we traded for him in a contract year and we not anywhere near "good" at the time... not really the way to judge him.
As for your comps, five rush artists and two MLBs, kinda apples and oranges there. He's never been given any of those roles on a full time basis. Had he been would he have shown as brightly? Doubtful as he doesn't seem to have the first step those guys do, but not impossible to imagine.
We paid what we needed to pay at the time to keep a quality player in CLE. Remember we traded for him in a contract year and we not anywhere near "good" at the time... not really the way to judge him.
As for your comps, five rush artists and two MLBs, kinda apples and oranges there. He's never been given any of those roles on a full time basis. Had he been would he have shown as brightly? Doubtful as he doesn't seem to have the first step those guys do, but not impossible to imagine.
Sure, at the time I wasn't mad at the contract and completely agree. Only way we were going to get ANY FA's the last five years was to overpay them greatly.
I just use that data to suggest that going into next season, his rate of pay IMO doesn't equate to similar (admittedly somewhat different) players at the position. Point is, it's fair to say he's getting paid at a superstar (or very near) level and I'm not sure he's played close to that at all. Seeing he's also hit the 30 year old mark and as I've described the guys we know we're gonna have to pay, I don't see how his contract gets justified.
-
Isn’t he the only super bowl vet we have?
I was upset with his effort at times but Collins is a talented/experienced LB and we need those.
Eh, I'm not sure how much that matters really.
Let me put it a different way. Going into the season Collins was the 7th highest paid player at the position. The guys above him? Von Miller, Justin Houston, Melvin Ingram, Robert Quinn, and Clay Matthews. The two guys below him are Kuechly and Nick Perry
Do you (you being figurative here) really see Jamie Collins in that group of people? I sure as hell don't. As noted, with guys we're going to need to pay in the current 4 year salary cap period, paying this dude almost $12 million for decent, but not great, play doesn't add up. I'd be very surprised to see him on his current deal next year.
Eh, I'm not sure how much that matters really.
Let me put it a different way. Going into the season Collins was the 7th highest paid player at the position. The guys above him? Von Miller, Justin Houston, Melvin Ingram, Robert Quinn, and Clay Matthews. The two guys below him are Kuechly and Nick Perry
Do you (you being figurative here) really see Jamie Collins in that group of people? I sure as hell don't. As noted, with guys we're going to need to pay in the current 4 year salary cap period, paying this dude almost $12 million for decent, but not great, play doesn't add up. I'd be very surprised to see him on his current deal next year.
I compared your list to an NFL LB stats page, and it’s kind of a tough call to determine who should make what based on them. Guys like Von Miller and Matthews have flashier sack totals, but literally less than half the total tackle numbers that Collins has. Sort of begs the question what is a tackle worth? Or a sack? Or an interception?
Both Schobert and Collins were in the top 30, mostly based on tackles, but both had some complimentary sacks and such in there too.
They both played a whole lotta snaps, so their total tackle numbers should be high. Another indicator that he is basically one of our main dudes on defense. Affording his contract at this point in time is not an issue. There simply is no sense of urgency to get rid of or restructure his contract.
-
We paid what we needed to pay at the time to keep a quality player in CLE. Remember we traded for him in a contract year and we not anywhere near "good" at the time... not really the way to judge him.
As for your comps, five rush artists and two MLBs, kinda apples and oranges there. He's never been given any of those roles on a full time basis. Had he been would he have shown as brightly? Doubtful as he doesn't seem to have the first step those guys do, but not impossible to imagine.
Sure, at the time I wasn't mad at the contract and completely agree. Only way we were going to get ANY FA's the last five years was to overpay them greatly.
I just use that data to suggest that going into next season, his rate of pay IMO doesn't equate to similar (admittedly somewhat different) players at the position. Point is, it's fair to say he's getting paid at a superstar (or very near) level and I'm not sure he's played close to that at all. Seeing he's also hit the 30 year old mark and as I've described the guys we know we're gonna have to pay, I don't see how his contract gets justified.
Point is, it's fair to say he's getting paid at a superstar (or very near) level and I'm not sure he's played close to that at all. Seeing he's also hit the 30 year old mark and as I've described the guys we know we're gonna have to pay, I don't see how his contract gets justified.
Agree with that point... the contract is outsized, but (my point) it always was...
Ultimately the issue is whether you can replace let alone upgrade his on field contributions irrespective of cost. I don't see that being as easy at ROLB as it is at several other positions including the other two LB slots.
And I say that loving both Joe and Kirk.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Eh, I'm not sure how much that matters really.
Let me put it a different way. Going into the season Collins was the 7th highest paid player at the position. The guys above him? Von Miller, Justin Houston, Melvin Ingram, Robert Quinn, and Clay Matthews. The two guys below him are Kuechly and Nick Perry
Do you (you being figurative here) really see Jamie Collins in that group of people? I sure as hell don't. As noted, with guys we're going to need to pay in the current 4 year salary cap period, paying this dude almost $12 million for decent, but not great, play doesn't add up. I'd be very surprised to see him on his current deal next year.
I compared your list to an NFL LB stats page, and it’s kind of a tough call to determine who should make what based on them. Guys like Von Miller and Matthews have flashier sack totals, but literally less than half the total tackle numbers that Collins has. Sort of begs the question what is a tackle worth? Or a sack? Or an interception?
Both Schobert and Collins were in the top 30, mostly based on tackles, but both had some complimentary sacks and such in there too.
They both played a whole lotta snaps, so their total tackle numbers should be high. Another indicator that he is basically one of our main dudes on defense. Affording his contract at this point in time is not an issue. There simply is no sense of urgency to get rid of or restructure his contract.
I compared your list to an NFL LB stats page, and it’s kind of a tough call to determine who should make what based on them. Guys like Von Miller and Matthews have flashier sack totals, but literally less than half the total tackle numbers that Collins has. Sort of begs the question what is a tackle worth? Or a sack? Or an interception?
Both Schobert and Collins were in the top 30, mostly based on tackles, but both had some complimentary sacks and such in there too.
They both played a whole lotta snaps, so their total tackle numbers should be high. Another indicator that he is basically one of our main dudes on defense. Affording his contract at this point in time is not an issue. There simply is no sense of urgency to get rid of or restructure his contract.
Good stuff and point taken. I think I'd argue tackles aren't as "impressive" simply because any LB worth a lick getting starters minutes is going to be in the 100+ range of tackles on a season. In terms of the affording his contract, I'd again point out that we have a ton of guys to potentially pay going into 2020 and 2021. The cap rule of spending as I understand applies over a period of four years, beginning in 2017. When you consider the guys we'd wanna pay (potentially), hoarding cash and losing this contract could really mean keeping the core young guys on good deals.
Agree with that point... the contract is outsized, but (my point) it always was...
Ultimately the issue is whether you can replace let alone upgrade his on field contributions irrespective of cost. I don't see that being as easy at ROLB as it is at several other positions including the other two LB slots.
And I say that loving both Joe and Kirk.
Definitely a fair point. I wouldn't be against a restructure to keep the guy. He's just not worth the price tag.
-
I compared your list to an NFL LB stats page, and it’s kind of a tough call to determine who should make what based on them. Guys like Von Miller and Matthews have flashier sack totals, but literally less than half the total tackle numbers that Collins has. Sort of begs the question what is a tackle worth? Or a sack? Or an interception?
Both Schobert and Collins were in the top 30, mostly based on tackles, but both had some complimentary sacks and such in there too.
They both played a whole lotta snaps, so their total tackle numbers should be high. Another indicator that he is basically one of our main dudes on defense. Affording his contract at this point in time is not an issue. There simply is no sense of urgency to get rid of or restructure his contract.
Good stuff and point taken. I think I'd argue tackles aren't as "impressive" simply because any LB worth a lick getting starters minutes is going to be in the 100+ range of tackles on a season. In terms of the affording his contract, I'd again point out that we have a ton of guys to potentially pay going into 2020 and 2021. The cap rule of spending as I understand applies over a period of four years, beginning in 2017. When you consider the guys we'd wanna pay (potentially), hoarding cash and losing this contract could really mean keeping the core young guys on good deals.
Agree with that point... the contract is outsized, but (my point) it always was...
Ultimately the issue is whether you can replace let alone upgrade his on field contributions irrespective of cost. I don't see that being as easy at ROLB as it is at several other positions including the other two LB slots.
And I say that loving both Joe and Kirk.
Definitely a fair point. I wouldn't be against a restructure to keep the guy. He's just not worth the price tag.
Good stuff and point taken. I think I'd argue tackles aren't as "impressive" simply because any LB worth a lick getting starters minutes is going to be in the 100+ range of tackles on a season. In terms of the affording his contract, I'd again point out that we have a ton of guys to potentially pay going into 2020 and 2021. The cap rule of spending as I understand applies over a period of four years, beginning in 2017. When you consider the guys we'd wanna pay (potentially), hoarding cash and losing this contract could really mean keeping the core young guys on good deals.
There’s probably a healthy and mutually beneficial middle ground here. If ‘20 or ‘21 is what you’re worried about, pay the man now and table this conversation until this time next year. Serves multiple purposes. Veteran presence and production next year, possible tutilage for his successor, and a statement from the team that they will honor their contracts might bode well for the guys you hope to lock up in ‘20 or ‘21.
Hello! It looks like you're interested in this conversation, but you don't have an account yet.
Getting fed up of having to scroll through the same posts each visit? When you register for an account, you'll always come back to exactly where you were before, and choose to be notified of new replies (either via email, or push notification). You'll also be able to save bookmarks and upvote posts to show your appreciation to other community members.
With your input, this post could be even better 💗
Register Login