Bold idea that would change the landscape of sports in Cleveland
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Yeah, it does matter. It matters because apparently the owners of the Detroit Lions, Indianapolis Colts, Seattle Seahawks, Minnesota Vikings and Atlanta Falcons all built new stadiums in their respective downtowns, or just outside it, for nothing resembling your 300 acres or 200 acres.
No, it doesn't matter a cabbage fart what those guys did....IF the Haslam's and the league were to get what they want.
Now...IF there were to be a new stadium, could they settle for something less than what they want? Sure. They could look at scaling thing down, because they can't get what they want. But it has nothing to do with what these other teams do. The "other" teams that are the models for what NFL owners likely will want in the future are the ones I previously mentioned....Cowboys/Pats/LA etc......the ones with a lot of developable land.
No, it doesn't matter a cabbage fart what those guys did....IF the Haslam's and the league were to get what they want.
Now...IF there were to be a new stadium, could they settle for something less than what they want? Sure. They could look at scaling thing down, because they can't get what they want. But it has nothing to do with what these other teams do. The "other" teams that are the models for what NFL owners likely will want in the future are the ones I previously mentioned....Cowboys/Pats/LA etc......the ones with a lot of developable land.
Basically, if examples that refute Gipper's argument are found, they are not important and should be disregarded.
Maybe Tour is on to something...
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No, it doesn't matter a cabbage fart what those guys did....IF the Haslam's and the league were to get what they want.
Now...IF there were to be a new stadium, could they settle for something less than what they want? Sure. They could look at scaling thing down, because they can't get what they want. But it has nothing to do with what these other teams do. The "other" teams that are the models for what NFL owners likely will want in the future are the ones I previously mentioned....Cowboys/Pats/LA etc......the ones with a lot of developable land.
Basically, if examples that refute Gipper's argument are found, they are not important and should be disregarded.
Maybe Tour is on to something...
Maybe Tour is on to something...
It's your time... do with it as you will.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
I am far less impressed with downtown Atlanta than you are. It might be bigger than Cleveland's, but greater is not a term I would use. Sorry.
If you couldn't figure out that was sarcasm, I honestly feel bad for you.
Jesus Christ, I would have paid money to see you in court. That had to be hilarious.
If you couldn't figure out that was sarcasm, I honestly feel bad for you.
Jesus Christ, I would have paid money to see you in court. That had to be hilarious.
OK. No, I didn't catch that it was sarcasm, as there are people that sing the praises of Atlanta. To me, its just OK.
And you CAN pay money to see me in court. I can send you my court schedule if you would like. Doylestown Mayor's Court. Not far from Canal Fulton.
(and please....recognize this as sarcasm....for as my magisterial duties are concerned, you can see that for free....but otherwise, yes, you would have to pay dearly)
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No, it doesn't matter a cabbage fart what those guys did....IF the Haslam's and the league were to get what they want.
Now...IF there were to be a new stadium, could they settle for something less than what they want? Sure. They could look at scaling thing down, because they can't get what they want. But it has nothing to do with what these other teams do. The "other" teams that are the models for what NFL owners likely will want in the future are the ones I previously mentioned....Cowboys/Pats/LA etc......the ones with a lot of developable land.
Basically, if examples that refute Gipper's argument are found, they are not important and should be disregarded.
Maybe Tour is on to something...
Basically, if examples that refute Gipper's argument are found, they are not important and should be disregarded.
Maybe Tour is on to something...
Not saying they should be disregarded....but, I am telling you those are NOT the trend, and they are NOT really what the NFL and a lot of their owners want. Do they "settle" for a small footprint stadium arrangement? Sure they do, as I said, in situations where they are getting the vast public subsidies to build these stadiums. Those particular owners decided not to go with the Kraft/Jones/Kroenke/York/Khan model because they wanted the easy way in. And could the Haslam's "settle" for the easy way in as well? Sure, if they don't want to go through the work and process of doing it the newer way. But I believe ab initio, their primary goal IS to explore doing it by the mega-development method...because "your" way is now just really the "settle" method of doing it. The Haslams have the money to at least consider privately financing their development. Buffet paid 2.76 Billion for just a 38.6% share of Pilot. By 2023 he will purchase a stake in company to where he will be 80% owner, with the Haslam's owning the rest. That could be another 4 billion in Haslam's pocket. More than enough to start financing a megadevelopment if they wanted. With that kind of ready cash that will be available to them soon...and seeing the Pats/Rams/Cowboys etc model out there.....why oh why would they just settle?
So, again, you may be right. Maybe the Haslam's will settle....as the NFL has always in the past really relied on the taxpayer footing their facility bills, and maybe that temptation to blackmail the city again for the big money they can get out of all us will be there. It has been a proven tactic of success for the NFL owners in the past. But now there is another mode in the way of doing things...where, while it may cost them a lot more to do private financing, the ultimate return may be vastly higher than even when they have someone else paying for things. After all, if a city is financing YOUR business facility, they are going to want a big cut in return.
And, no, you don't want to conclude that Tour is on to something. His method is just to be a little cunny and run and hide from any reasonable argument. You at least stand your ground.
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If you couldn't figure out that was sarcasm, I honestly feel bad for you.
Jesus Christ, I would have paid money to see you in court. That had to be hilarious.
OK. No, I didn't catch that it was sarcasm, as there are people that sing the praises of Atlanta. To me, its just OK.
And you CAN pay money to see me in court. I can send you my court schedule if you would like. Doylestown Mayor's Court. Not far from Canal Fulton.
(and please....recognize this as sarcasm....for as my magisterial duties are concerned, you can see that for free....but otherwise, yes, you would have to pay dearly)
OK. No, I didn't catch that it was sarcasm, as there are people that sing the praises of Atlanta. To me, its just OK.
And you CAN pay money to see me in court. I can send you my court schedule if you would like. Doylestown Mayor's Court. Not far from Canal Fulton.
(and please....recognize this as sarcasm....for as my magisterial duties are concerned, you can see that for free....but otherwise, yes, you would have to pay dearly)
I think that begins with "your honor I".........
If that would ever happen to anyone here maybe you could give us a BROWNS BOARD discount, eh ?
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It shouldn't. The stadium isn't very good. It was built in haste and on the cheap. It's kind of like a medium level builders spec home. It's OK for 20 years, then things start falling apart.
I would love to see the plans for the OTHER ideas they had for the stadium, because the rumor was that the one they picked was basically the most generic one.
I would love to see the plans for the OTHER ideas they had for the stadium, because the rumor was that the one they picked was basically the most generic one.
In part true. We'll use a cookie cutter plan because the architectural guys already had something similar, and it cuts down on costs. BUT, the plan also was to keep the "feel" of the old stadium as much as possible, resulting in my major gripe about the place. The inadequate room behind the stands relative to any "modern" stadium. If you've ever been to Ford Field, Lucas Oil, or Paul Brown you know what I'm talking about.
If you couldn't figure out that was sarcasm, I honestly feel bad for you.
Jesus Christ, I would have paid money to see you in court. That had to be hilarious.
Sorry Dutch your sarcasm comes through very poorly the majority of the time. Gipper isn't the only one who doesn't see it.
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Basically, if examples that refute Gipper's argument are found, they are not important and should be disregarded.
Maybe Tour is on to something...
Not saying they should be disregarded....but, I am telling you those are NOT the trend, and they are NOT really what the NFL and a lot of their owners want. Do they "settle" for a small footprint stadium arrangement? Sure they do, as I said, in situations where they are getting the vast public subsidies to build these stadiums. Those particular owners decided not to go with the Kraft/Jones/Kroenke/York/Khan model because they wanted the easy way in. And could the Haslam's "settle" for the easy way in as well? Sure, if they don't want to go through the work and process of doing it the newer way. But I believe ab initio, their primary goal IS to explore doing it by the mega-development method...because "your" way is now just really the "settle" method of doing it. The Haslams have the money to at least consider privately financing their development. Buffet paid 2.76 Billion for just a 38.6% share of Pilot. By 2023 he will purchase a stake in company to where he will be 80% owner, with the Haslam's owning the rest. That could be another 4 billion in Haslam's pocket. More than enough to start financing a megadevelopment if they wanted. With that kind of ready cash that will be available to them soon...and seeing the Pats/Rams/Cowboys etc model out there.....why oh why would they just settle?
So, again, you may be right. Maybe the Haslam's will settle....as the NFL has always in the past really relied on the taxpayer footing their facility bills, and maybe that temptation to blackmail the city again for the big money they can get out of all us will be there. It has been a proven tactic of success for the NFL owners in the past. But now there is another mode in the way of doing things...where, while it may cost them a lot more to do private financing, the ultimate return may be vastly higher than even when they have someone else paying for things. After all, if a city is financing YOUR business facility, they are going to want a big cut in return.
And, no, you don't want to conclude that Tour is on to something. His method is just to be a little cunny and run and hide from any reasonable argument. You at least stand your ground.
His method is just to be a little cunny and run and hide from any reasonable argument.
Oh, Gipper...
You're the only one here who thinks any of your arguments are reasonable.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
His method is just to be a little cunny and run and hide from any reasonable argument.
Oh, Gipper...
You're the only one here who thinks any of your arguments are reasonable.
Oh, Gipper...
You're the only one here who thinks any of your arguments are reasonable.
Surprised you even saw that comment.
Who among us here has won court cases with reasonable arguments? If you take off your bridal veil of prejudice, You clearly would see that my arguments are perfectly reasonable on this matter, because, in reality, from my experience, the best argument is that in which the full force of the facts are on your side. And the full force of the facts ARE on my side on this: Many of the NFL owners are going full guns on the mega-development model for their stadiums...they are going fully into wanting largely private/public partnership funded facilities that can put them into the category as "project developers" as it does "NFL team owners". And, as I said, where they have not done that, those owners were still far more willing to slurp from the public money trough than their brethren who had more foresight into the future.
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Jacksonville Stadium project:
Could be a model for Cleveland. Remember the area in the Flats I referenced, just west of Fleet st. along Washington Parkway......take an old industrial site along a river, clean it up, build a stadium/shopping/hotel/condo complex like this one in JAX.
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Dallas. Tons of surrounding parking (for both stadiums)....tons of hotel/restaurants/commercial surrounding it.
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Before and after pictures of Patriots stadium area:
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New LA stadium development plans:
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Levi Stadium Development area: 49ers:
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Development under construction around MetLife stadium NY/NH
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Development under construction around MetLife stadium NY/NH
Development under construction around MetLife stadium NY/NH
Good pics, puts things in perspective.
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Oh, Gipper...
You're the only one here who thinks any of your arguments are reasonable.
Surprised you even saw that comment.
Who among us here has won court cases with reasonable arguments? If you take off your bridal veil of prejudice, You clearly would see that my arguments are perfectly reasonable on this matter, because, in reality, from my experience, the best argument is that in which the full force of the facts are on your side. And the full force of the facts ARE on my side on this: Many of the NFL owners are going full guns on the mega-development model for their stadiums...they are going fully into wanting largely private/public partnership funded facilities that can put them into the category as "project developers" as it does "NFL team owners". And, as I said, where they have not done that, those owners were still far more willing to slurp from the public money trough than their brethren who had more foresight into the future.
Surprised you even saw that comment.
Who among us here has won court cases with reasonable arguments? If you take off your bridal veil of prejudice, You clearly would see that my arguments are perfectly reasonable on this matter, because, in reality, from my experience, the best argument is that in which the full force of the facts are on your side. And the full force of the facts ARE on my side on this: Many of the NFL owners are going full guns on the mega-development model for their stadiums...they are going fully into wanting largely private/public partnership funded facilities that can put them into the category as "project developers" as it does "NFL team owners". And, as I said, where they have not done that, those owners were still far more willing to slurp from the public money trough than their brethren who had more foresight into the future.
I rest my case.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Dallas. Tons of surrounding parking (for both stadiums)....tons of hotel/restaurants/commercial surrounding it.
Dallas. Tons of surrounding parking (for both stadiums)....tons of hotel/restaurants/commercial surrounding it.
You're missing a stadium.
Rangers are building a new, retractable roof home, Globe Life Field.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Surprised you even saw that comment.
Who among us here has won court cases with reasonable arguments? If you take off your bridal veil of prejudice, You clearly would see that my arguments are perfectly reasonable on this matter, because, in reality, from my experience, the best argument is that in which the full force of the facts are on your side. And the full force of the facts ARE on my side on this: Many of the NFL owners are going full guns on the mega-development model for their stadiums...they are going fully into wanting largely private/public partnership funded facilities that can put them into the category as "project developers" as it does "NFL team owners". And, as I said, where they have not done that, those owners were still far more willing to slurp from the public money trough than their brethren who had more foresight into the future.
I rest my case.
I rest my case.
And you lose your case, because: A. You didn't present any sort of a case to begin with. Snarky drive-by remarks do not a case make. B. You made no argument on either side of this stadium issue thing. You clearly have nothing to contribute. You certainly provided nothing to the discussion that Dutch and I were having. You have to score points to win. When your point score is exactly -0-....you can't win a thing. C. Your best option is to simply declare that you are bankrupt with no assets at your disposal.
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Dallas. Tons of surrounding parking (for both stadiums)....tons of hotel/restaurants/commercial surrounding it.
You're missing a stadium.
Rangers are building a new, retractable roof home, Globe Life Field.
You're missing a stadium.
Rangers are building a new, retractable roof home, Globe Life Field.
What is that in the upper right hand corner, labeled "Globe Life Park in Arlington"? Is that the "old" stadium (that isn't very old)? This was the best aerial view I could find that encompassed the entire area. If you have a more recent depiction of what is going on there, by all means, show us.
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Oh, Gipper...
You're the only one here who thinks any of your arguments are reasonable.
Surprised you even saw that comment.
Who among us here has won court cases with reasonable arguments? If you take off your bridal veil of prejudice, You clearly would see that my arguments are perfectly reasonable on this matter, because, in reality, from my experience, the best argument is that in which the full force of the facts are on your side. And the full force of the facts ARE on my side on this: Many of the NFL owners are going full guns on the mega-development model for their stadiums...they are going fully into wanting largely private/public partnership funded facilities that can put them into the category as "project developers" as it does "NFL team owners". And, as I said, where they have not done that, those owners were still far more willing to slurp from the public money trough than their brethren who had more foresight into the future.
Surprised you even saw that comment.
Who among us here has won court cases with reasonable arguments? If you take off your bridal veil of prejudice, You clearly would see that my arguments are perfectly reasonable on this matter, because, in reality, from my experience, the best argument is that in which the full force of the facts are on your side. And the full force of the facts ARE on my side on this: Many of the NFL owners are going full guns on the mega-development model for their stadiums...they are going fully into wanting largely private/public partnership funded facilities that can put them into the category as "project developers" as it does "NFL team owners". And, as I said, where they have not done that, those owners were still far more willing to slurp from the public money trough than their brethren who had more foresight into the future.
You: NFL teams demand 300 acres outside the city limits so they can build megaplexes
Me: Here's a list of NFL teams that have recently built stadiums in their respective downtowns, or just outside their respective downtowns, with nowhere near that much land.
You: THOSE TEAMS DON'T COUNT!
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