Pavano Traded
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You guys whine too much.
Pavano...all 9 wins is getting you upset??
LOL....GMAB
I say get the prospects.
See you in a few years when you jump back on the bandwagon.
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You guys whine too much.
Pavano...all 9 wins is getting you upset??
LOL....GMAB
I say get the prospects.
See you in a few years when you jump back on the bandwagon.
You guys whine too much.
Pavano...all 9 wins is getting you upset??
LOL....GMAB
I say get the prospects.
See you in a few years when you jump back on the bandwagon.
I agree, but the fans have the right to bitch if they want.
I guess at this point play the odds with the prospects and get rid of everyone.
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I have never neen off the bandwagon Peen...just very frustrated over this season; the fact that 2010 looks pretty bleak as well
At least it is fun to go to Clippers games here in Columbus!
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If you're going to rebuild....there's no reason on earth to keep a 33 year old with an ERA over 5 who's playing for a new contract.
As for the "might as well get rid of everyone"....that's a bit played out considering who we've traded and who we still have.
Sizemore, Choo and Cabrera are here long term...barring whatever Choo's deal with the Korean government.
Carmona, Laffey, Huff, and Masterson are here long term.
Pretty much the whole bullpen besides Wood is here long term.
Until we lose any of those guys, it doesn't really matter. That's our next "core" and the role players and stopgaps on (or that were on) the current roster make no difference.
Since I know some people still don't understand the current plan...whether you agree with it or not.....be ready to see Shoppach and Peralta gone next so it's not as traumatic as witnessing the unforeseeable end of Carl Pavano.
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I have no problem with this trade. Pavano was a stop gap this year, and maybe we will get something good in return for him.
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If you're going to rebuild....there's no reason on earth to keep a 33 year old with an ERA over 5 who's playing for a new contract.
As for the "might as well get rid of everyone"....that's a bit played out considering who we've traded and who we still have.
Sizemore, Choo and Cabrera are here long term...barring whatever Choo's deal with the Korean government.
Carmona, Laffey, Huff, and Masterson are here long term.
Pretty much the whole bullpen besides Wood is here long term.
Until we lose any of those guys, it doesn't really matter. That's our next "core" and the role players and stopgaps on (or that were on) the current roster make no difference.
Since I know some people still don't understand the current plan...whether you agree with it or not.....be ready to see Shoppach and Peralta gone next so it's not as traumatic as witnessing the unforeseeable end of Carl Pavano.
If you're going to rebuild....there's no reason on earth to keep a 33 year old with an ERA over 5 who's playing for a new contract.
As for the "might as well get rid of everyone"....that's a bit played out considering who we've traded and who we still have.
Sizemore, Choo and Cabrera are here long term...barring whatever Choo's deal with the Korean government.
Carmona, Laffey, Huff, and Masterson are here long term.
Pretty much the whole bullpen besides Wood is here long term.
Until we lose any of those guys, it doesn't really matter. That's our next "core" and the role players and stopgaps on (or that were on) the current roster make no difference.
Since I know some people still don't understand the current plan...whether you agree with it or not.....be ready to see Shoppach and Peralta gone next so it's not as traumatic as witnessing the unforeseeable end of Carl Pavano.
I agree with you on this one. He's sucked out loud this year and has taken a lot of salary.
But, many people UNDERSTAND the plan. Don't assume we don't know what it is because we don't like how the last DECADE of seeing this plan in action has turned out. We are upset that it's a perpetual wait-and-see-three-years-down-the-road plan.
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If you're going to rebuild....there's no reason on earth to keep a 33 year old with an ERA over 5 who's playing for a new contract.
As for the "might as well get rid of everyone"....that's a bit played out considering who we've traded and who we still have.
Sizemore, Choo and Cabrera are here long term...barring whatever Choo's deal with the Korean government.
Carmona, Laffey, Huff, and Masterson are here long term.
Pretty much the whole bullpen besides Wood is here long term.
Until we lose any of those guys, it doesn't really matter. That's our next "core" and the role players and stopgaps on (or that were on) the current roster make no difference.
Since I know some people still don't understand the current plan...whether you agree with it or not.....be ready to see Shoppach and Peralta gone next so it's not as traumatic as witnessing the unforeseeable end of Carl Pavano.
I agree with you on this one. He's sucked out loud this year and has taken a lot of salary.
But, many people UNDERSTAND the plan. Don't assume we don't know what it is because we don't like how the last DECADE of seeing this plan in action has turned out. We are upset that it's a perpetual wait-and-see-three-years-down-the-road plan.
But, many people UNDERSTAND the plan. Don't assume we don't know what it is because we don't like how the last DECADE of seeing this plan in action has turned out. We are upset that it's a perpetual wait-and-see-three-years-down-the-road plan.
Eh. I've tried to explain myself in about 10 different threads now so I guess I won't try anymore. But I'll sum it up. When Shapiro came on board, it was a complete rebuild. 2005-now was our window for contention. From 2005-2008 we added and re-signed a few players to $10M+/year contracts, locked up Sizemore and Fausto through 2012, added role players here and there, and lost a total of one significant player due to trade or free agency...CC (two if you consider Millwood significant). And we only lost him at the deadline before he was going to leave through FA. '
So now, trade deadline '09, we decided we weren't going to be a realistic contender...and entered rebuild #2. This hasn't been the plan for the past decade...it's the been the plan for the past couple weeks.
And, to me at least, anyone upset or shocked about losing Carl Pavano definitely doesn't understand the plan.
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But, many people UNDERSTAND the plan. Don't assume we don't know what it is because we don't like how the last DECADE of seeing this plan in action has turned out. We are upset that it's a perpetual wait-and-see-three-years-down-the-road plan.
Eh. I've tried to explain myself in about 10 different threads now so I guess I won't try anymore. But I'll sum it up. When Shapiro came on board, it was a complete rebuild. 2005-now was our window for contention. From 2005-2008 we added and re-signed a few players to $10M+/year contracts, locked up Sizemore and Fausto through 2012, added role players here and there, and lost a total of one significant player due to trade or free agency...CC (two if you consider Millwood significant). And we only lost him at the deadline before he was going to leave through FA. '
So now, trade deadline '09, we decided we weren't going to be a realistic contender...and entered rebuild #2. This hasn't been the plan for the past decade...it's the been the plan for the past couple weeks.
And, to me at least, anyone upset or shocked about losing Carl Pavano definitely doesn't understand the plan.
Eh. I've tried to explain myself in about 10 different threads now so I guess I won't try anymore. But I'll sum it up. When Shapiro came on board, it was a complete rebuild. 2005-now was our window for contention. From 2005-2008 we added and re-signed a few players to $10M+/year contracts, locked up Sizemore and Fausto through 2012, added role players here and there, and lost a total of one significant player due to trade or free agency...CC (two if you consider Millwood significant). And we only lost him at the deadline before he was going to leave through FA. '
So now, trade deadline '09, we decided we weren't going to be a realistic contender...and entered rebuild #2. This hasn't been the plan for the past decade...it's the been the plan for the past couple weeks.
And, to me at least, anyone upset or shocked about losing Carl Pavano definitely doesn't understand the plan.
CIMO
First let me thank you for all the informative and incredibly knowledgeable posts you bring to this board really your updates on the farm teams and internal knowledge of the organization has been a great read all summer,truly thank you
But please don't take the venting on this board as a personal attack as you know some on here are ticket holders for future games,tv package subscribers,or just frustrated fans
and we've just been told that this seasons over and all hope for next is over as well ( yea we've known that since May but this is the American League Central where a 10 game winning streak puts you right back in the race)
we've been told to expect to pay major league prices to watch minor league development,and for some of us that's a kick in the balls by Dolan, thus the bitching.
Believe me I get the small market thing when the Yankees TV contract is around $220 million and ours is around $20 million(I'm sure someone will correct me on this) there's no way the playing field is level.
and that dumping salaries is survival not just business
but try to understand that...
A) for the second straight year our cy young winner has been traded for nobody that's going to make an impact this year
B)our favorite player and the only guy who has come out and said he wants to stay,has been traded to the evil empire part deux
C)we will compete again as soon as possible ,but it won't be next year
D)basically Eric Wedges' job is safe for at least 3 more years
So you see buddy that's alot to stomach in just about a weeks time,but we'll come around eventually to see the potential that you and a few others see right now,remember were all Cleveland fans here and nobody takes a punch to the nuts better than us....
....just... give us.... a minute
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I don't see any of it as a personal attack, and I'm not trying to attack anyone else...I'm just talking Tribe. The fact of the matter is, this section of the board has been dominated by about 4 or 5 regular posters, and all of a sudden there are dozens coming on here not just to talk baseball, but to rip on my favorite team. Which is completely fine, I'm just going to have to defend my team.
If you're upset about losing some good players and having the '09 season declared over....it's understandable. Being a fan of any Cleveland sports team can be pretty agonizing. But when people are going to call for Dolan and Shapiro's heads and call us the Pittsburgh Pirates or Oakland Raiders....I just want to hear why, and hope the people will have a decent argument.
Everyone can have their own opinions, but when they start calling people out...like I said, I just hope they can back it up.
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I don't see any of it as a personal attack, and I'm not trying to attack anyone else...I'm just talking Tribe. The fact of the matter is, this section of the board has been dominated by about 4 or 5 regular posters, and all of a sudden there are dozens coming on here not just to talk baseball, but to rip on my favorite team. Which is completely fine, I'm just going to have to defend my team.
If you're upset about losing some good players and having the '09 season declared over....it's understandable. Being a fan of any Cleveland sports team can be pretty agonizing. But when people are going to call for Dolan and Shapiro's heads and call us the Pittsburgh Pirates or Oakland Raiders....I just want to hear why, and hope the people will have a decent argument.
Everyone can have their own opinions, but when they start calling people out...like I said, I just hope they can back it up.
I don't see any of it as a personal attack, and I'm not trying to attack anyone else...I'm just talking Tribe. The fact of the matter is, this section of the board has been dominated by about 4 or 5 regular posters, and all of a sudden there are dozens coming on here not just to talk baseball, but to rip on my favorite team. Which is completely fine, I'm just going to have to defend my team.
You're a terrific soldier, CIMO. The same *exact* thing has happened throughout the various changes of this site, from when we were at CBS or some such place to thefullcleveland to here. Without fail, there have always been 4 or 5 regular posters until a deadline deal was made. Then - look out board! Many Browns fans (seriously - Browns fans!) would then find their way here and post all sorts of grumblings. The Colon deal was an especially perfect example. Really wish that thread was still available on Internet Archive.
It is what it is. I understand the gripes and appreciate the posts from people who reasonably talk about why such-and-such deal affects their fandom. In particular, BrownB499 offered up a terrific post. Unfortunately, those types of posts are rare and you're far more likely to run into a guy like Adam who is going to give up the *entire sport* because the Indians traded Carl Pavano. After all, we're a simple subculture of a Browns board.
FWIW, here's the initial thread where we talked about acquiring Pavano:
http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=2116
Beanpot
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FWIW, Rosenthal's latest "Full Count" video mentions that Masterson was throwing 93-97 mph in his last appearance, prompting questions about his ability to close games.
http://msn.foxsports.com/video?vid=26a77a3...5c-810131f6548b
Beanpot
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I don't see any of it as a personal attack, and I'm not trying to attack anyone else...I'm just talking Tribe. The fact of the matter is, this section of the board has been dominated by about 4 or 5 regular posters, and all of a sudden there are dozens coming on here not just to talk baseball, but to rip on my favorite team. Which is completely fine, I'm just going to have to defend my team.
You're a terrific soldier, CIMO. The same *exact* thing has happened throughout the various changes of this site, from when we were at CBS or some such place to thefullcleveland to here. Without fail, there have always been 4 or 5 regular posters until a deadline deal was made. Then - look out board! Many Browns fans (seriously - Browns fans!) would then find their way here and post all sorts of grumblings. The Colon deal was an especially perfect example. Really wish that thread was still available on Internet Archive.
It is what it is. I understand the gripes and appreciate the posts from people who reasonably talk about why such-and-such deal affects their fandom. In particular, BrownB499 offered up a terrific post. Unfortunately, those types of posts are rare and you're far more likely to run into a guy like Adam who is going to give up the *entire sport* because the Indians traded Carl Pavano. After all, we're a simple subculture of a Browns board.
FWIW, here's the initial thread where we talked about acquiring Pavano:
http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=2116
Beanpot
You're a terrific soldier, CIMO. The same *exact* thing has happened throughout the various changes of this site, from when we were at CBS or some such place to thefullcleveland to here. Without fail, there have always been 4 or 5 regular posters until a deadline deal was made. Then - look out board! Many Browns fans (seriously - Browns fans!) would then find their way here and post all sorts of grumblings. The Colon deal was an especially perfect example. Really wish that thread was still available on Internet Archive.
Yep, as cocky as it sounds, I just hope some of these guys coming over understand that it's "our turf".... so to speak. Everyone can have their opinions, and I'm always fine talking Tribe with anyone, but I won't just sit back while so many people are ripping the organization I'm a fan of.
FWIW, here's the initial thread where we talked about acquiring Pavano:
http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=2116
Beanpot
Ah...look at how young I was. Excited about Lewis, the Raffys and Kerry f'in Wood. Good find.
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FWIW, Rosenthal's latest "Full Count" video mentions that Masterson was throwing 93-97 mph in his last appearance, prompting questions about his ability to close games.
http://msn.foxsports.com/video?vid=26a77a3...5c-810131f6548b
Beanpot
FWIW, Rosenthal's latest "Full Count" video mentions that Masterson was throwing 93-97 mph in his last appearance, prompting questions about his ability to close games.
http://msn.foxsports.com/video?vid=26a77a3...5c-810131f6548b
Beanpot
I sure hope not. I think we have enough of our current crop of young bullpen guys with closer potential, even if there's no Papelbons or Nathans in the bunch. Pretty much any of Lewis, either Perez, Sipp and Todd should be able to pitch the 9th inning. I want to see how Masterson looks as a starter, especially with his ground ball ability.
Side note....watching the game now I just caught that he's wearing #63, same as Betancourt. Pretty strange.
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You're a terrific soldier, CIMO. The same *exact* thing has happened throughout the various changes of this site, from when we were at CBS or some such place to thefullcleveland to here. Without fail, there have always been 4 or 5 regular posters until a deadline deal was made. Then - look out board! Many Browns fans (seriously - Browns fans!) would then find their way here and post all sorts of grumblings. The Colon deal was an especially perfect example. Really wish that thread was still available on Internet Archive.
Yep, as cocky as it sounds, I just hope some of these guys coming over understand that it's "our turf".... so to speak. Everyone can have their opinions, and I'm always fine talking Tribe with anyone, but I won't just sit back while so many people are ripping the organization I'm a fan of.
FWIW, here's the initial thread where we talked about acquiring Pavano:
http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=2116
Beanpot
Ah...look at how young I was. Excited about Lewis, the Raffys and Kerry f'in Wood. Good find.
Yep, as cocky as it sounds, I just hope some of these guys coming over understand that it's "our turf".... so to speak. Everyone can have their opinions, and I'm always fine talking Tribe with anyone, but I won't just sit back while so many people are ripping the organization I'm a fan of.
No, I totally understand. It's maddening to read throw-away comments and then try and decide if it's worth your time to refute 'em. Personally, I've found that it's not at all worth the time. This isn't a shot at the format, but it's clear that the audience is made up of Browns fans who happen to follow the Tribe casually. Good luck breaking out OPS+ or UZR around these parts. You're more likely to run into a guy who calls one of your stats "made up" than you are a person who cares to take the time to explain why a certain stat shouldn't be given much weight.
I guess we should be happy for the extra traffic.
Or not.
FWIW, I share your frustrations.
Beanpot
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I don't mean to be a random poster, but I have a quick question about the game tonight.
Why did Masterson get replaced after 4 innings? I didn't get a chance to see the game, but from looking at his statline, he looked to be doing pretty good. Only had 1 ER and a 61 PC. Did he get some kind of injury?
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I don't mean to be a random poster, but I have a quick question about the game tonight.
Why did Masterson get replaced after 4 innings? I didn't get a chance to see the game, but from looking at his statline, he looked to be doing pretty good. Only had 1 ER and a 61 PC. Did he get some kind of injury?
I don't mean to be a random poster, but I have a quick question about the game tonight.
Why did Masterson get replaced after 4 innings? I didn't get a chance to see the game, but from looking at his statline, he looked to be doing pretty good. Only had 1 ER and a 61 PC. Did he get some kind of injury?
He's still converting from his bullpen role, he was on a pitch count of 60.
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I don't mean to be a random poster, but I have a quick question about the game tonight.
Why did Masterson get replaced after 4 innings? I didn't get a chance to see the game, but from looking at his statline, he looked to be doing pretty good. Only had 1 ER and a 61 PC. Did he get some kind of injury?
He's still converting from his bullpen role, he was on a pitch count of 60.
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But, many people UNDERSTAND the plan. Don't assume we don't know what it is because we don't like how the last DECADE of seeing this plan in action has turned out. We are upset that it's a perpetual wait-and-see-three-years-down-the-road plan.
Eh. I've tried to explain myself in about 10 different threads now so I guess I won't try anymore. But I'll sum it up. When Shapiro came on board, it was a complete rebuild. 2005-now was our window for contention. From 2005-2008 we added and re-signed a few players to $10M+/year contracts, locked up Sizemore and Fausto through 2012, added role players here and there, and lost a total of one significant player due to trade or free agency...CC (two if you consider Millwood significant). And we only lost him at the deadline before he was going to leave through FA. '
So now, trade deadline '09, we decided we weren't going to be a realistic contender...and entered rebuild #2. This hasn't been the plan for the past decade...it's the been the plan for the past couple weeks.
And, to me at least, anyone upset or shocked about losing Carl Pavano definitely doesn't understand the plan.
Eh. I've tried to explain myself in about 10 different threads now so I guess I won't try anymore. But I'll sum it up. When Shapiro came on board, it was a complete rebuild. 2005-now was our window for contention. From 2005-2008 we added and re-signed a few players to $10M+/year contracts, locked up Sizemore and Fausto through 2012, added role players here and there, and lost a total of one significant player due to trade or free agency...CC (two if you consider Millwood significant). And we only lost him at the deadline before he was going to leave through FA. '
So now, trade deadline '09, we decided we weren't going to be a realistic contender...and entered rebuild #2. This hasn't been the plan for the past decade...it's the been the plan for the past couple weeks.
And, to me at least, anyone upset or shocked about losing Carl Pavano definitely doesn't understand the plan.
Meh I might consider Coco Crisp a significant player for the tribe, as he did have good numbers for us when he was here. Milton Bradley had a few good years, but I understand why he was traded. Casey Blake was as good as anyone we have to fill his position currently. Everyone knew Millwood wasn't going to be around here long.
No matter how you slice it, with the exception of one ALCS appearance, Indians fans have been hearing continuously how good the team was going to be 2-3 years down the road. I distinctly remember reading an article in 2001 (when Shapiro became GM) the goal was to win a championship 2-3 years down the road, not 4-7 years. So, since 2001, we have been constantly hearing how good the tribe will be 2-3 years down the road, with just one playoff appearance. Nearly a decade.
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