@dutch-oven said:

Nick Foles is 8 or 9 years older than Darnold. 

I kind of doubt they were ever at the same QB camp... 

Oh yeah he and Matt barkley came out the same year...or 1 year apart.

@tour2ma said:

I love how folks assume 'development" is inevitable...

Timing feels wrong to be true, but #106 at left edge of photo sure looks like a young Nick Foles.

Probably was.

I agree with this guy wholeheartedly.  But this guy also played qb and also tlaks about hisn  encounter with him at the camp when Sam was a unknown qb.

@gumby73 said:

At 4:55 Ash, I've seen Sam Darnold & Big Ben pump fake that defender to bite than complete pass..Not with 8 sacks dancing in his head & turning the ball over like a Pez Dispenser..Watch Greg Cosell change your guys diaper talking Sam Darnold here Ashtabula..

  next..

Baker grows on me more and more as a player but too.many traits that reminds people of Manzeil ..height- air raid offense..percieved attitude...(although pundits like cosell says otherwise).

@gumby73 said:

At 4:55 Ash, I've seen Sam Darnold & Big Ben pump fake that defender to bite than complete pass..Not with 8 sacks dancing in his head & turning the ball over like a Pez Dispenser..Watch Greg Cosell change your guys diaper talking Sam Darnold here Ashtabula..

  next..

I have seen the cosell on cowherd before.

@tour2ma said:

First... decent post... the one with some attempted detail behind. But you have a tendency to wander off topic, e.g., wandering into a clutch throw count in a section about accuracy. Why do I get the feeling you've not seen anywhere near the throws of any prospect not named Darnold? Anyway...

The solace I have tried to find in the inevitability that is Sam at #1 is that he has posted numbers despite being very flawed. Where I keep getting lost is in the knowledge that the NFL only magnifies flaws.

I agree with what you said about the nfl.  I hqve watched Rosen alot that's  why I was mainly comparing darnold vs Rosen.  

This is what I am talking about in terms of coaching ineptitude in terms of some of his interception issues.

@westside-steve said:

https://www.si.com/nfl/2018/03/30/2018-draft-josh-allen-sam-darnold-tyrod-taylor-browns-bills

Notice how he automatically assumes Browns will take Darnold at 1.   All these articles say this qb is great and that qb is great, however they all say Darnold is clearly #1. Everybody knows #1 is Darnold.  Which means Browns will pick Allen.  

If you go back I said virtually no coaching and bad coaching in terms of play calling and fundamentals.  Sam was winning and the coach said didn't  want to tinker with a winning formula and pretty much left him alone.  

He played 1 full season of high school qb and 24 games in college.   That is what I am talking about in terms of not having coaching & experience.

Maybe he has not played enough to form a habit that can be coached out of.

Since this debates has been about why and how Darnold is the best fit  I was offering my perspective, since I have watched more games and read about his rise than anyone here.

Here's my rankings

against toughest competition:

Baker 1 @ohio st. Georgia 

Darnold 2 ohio st. Bama, ND 2times, @washington last year schedule considered toughest in the cf.

Jackson 3

Rosen 4  no signature wins

Allen 5 played basically nobody

Accuracy:

Baker consensus 1 but air raid system

Darnold 2 clutch when the game is on the line.

Rosen 3 haven't  made much clutch throws in victory besides weak A&M game.

Jackson & Allen pickbyour poison

Mobility

Jackson 1

Darnold 2a

Allen 2b

Baker 3

Rosen 4

Arm talent

Allen is clearly 1 and the rest about the same.

Allen 1

Rosen, darnold, baker, jackson all have nfl arms so no issues here.

Mechanics 

Rosen 1

Baker 2

Darnold & allen 3

Jackson 4

Intengibles "it" factor

Darnold 1

Baker 2

Jackson 3

Allen 4

Rosen 5

Toughness/not injury prone

Darnold 1

Baker 1

jackson 2 too light

Allen 2

Rosen 3

Citizenship-locker room- leadership

Darnold 1

Jackson 2 won games single handedly.

Baker 2 ran away from cops. Socky led his team to wins

Allen 3 hasn't  done much

Rosen 4 frequently lost against less talented teams.

I would rank

Darnold 1

Baker 2

Rosen 3

Allen 4

Jackson 5

@tour2ma said:

You looked in on that other section enough to know that logic has nothing to do with cal's posts when he's attacking someone... matters not what that someone is a candidate for. Browns QB or President... same same.

It goes no deeper than him comparing the worst QB prospect he can think of to the QB prospect he likes least.

You should have stopped with being USC biased... Instead now you are on the thin ice of:

• bad coaching ---> ingrained bad habits...
• but all are fixable because of want to...
• as exhibited by "improvements" since his last, 11-on-11 game in his 2-on-0, Pro-day, beauty pageant.... AND....
• The only true measure of a QB on a 22-man team is W/L ratio...

That about sum it up?

In this article which is about Mayfield pretty much says Baker and Sam is the most accurate and the rest are far behind.

https://www.si.com/nfl/2018/03/22/baker-mayfield-advance-analytics-nfl-draft-oklahoma-pff

Do you guys buy into wonderlic scores?

Allen scored the highest of all top5 prospect:

Allen  37

Rosen 29

Darnold 28

Mayfield 25

Jackson 13

Historically bad score:

Vince young  6

By this score Allen is the smartest and puts Rosen and Darnold about the same.   With Jackson, there's a definite red flag.  Your thoughts?

https://247sports.com/nfl/dallas-cowboys/Bolt/Wonderlic-scores-revealed-for-top-QB-prospects-in-2018-NFL-Draft-116830596

I wish Kessler well in his new team.  However, as a sc alum/fan we knew he was just a game manager type player with below average nfl arm.  He was never the future in Cleveland.

@sd_tom said:

An SC alum preferring an SC qb over a UCLA one. 

This was to rebuff his comment about wiki sourcing....to highlight my interest/knowledge goes deeper than he seem to allegedly indicate.

@tiamat63 said:

Wasn't aware Rosen was doing rails at half-time in the locker room. 

Don't get the Leaf jokes at all. 

But I did watch an Aaron Rodgers highlight and kept hearing from Burman about Rodgers 'attitude' adding to his draft slide. 

....feels remarkably similar.

All the problems are fixable because he hasn't  had much coaching up until now.  So there is risk of him not able to overcome it.  But from what I have seen shows me he has a lot of fight and willingness to improve.  And Like I have beening saying he addressed some of that by making some noticable improvements since Cotton bowl to his pro day.  

Rosen in the other hand has no excuses with his great machanics and skills that he couldn't  make his team better and win.  

Isnt it the qb's job to lead his team to win? Isnt it what great qb are judged by?  

@tour2ma said:

ummm... no...

There is no... I repeat, no... comparison between the floors of these two QB prospects. See the visual evidence for the post above as a starting point.

Anticipation... hitting a primary receiver who is entering a dead spot in a zone is not NFL grade anticipation and neither is hitting a streaking WR clearing his man. Throwing to an opening man is not the same as throwing a man open... and it is the latter that takes anticipation.

Keeps his eyes Downfield? All the time? No... drops eyes to the rush. Now once clear he looks back up... throws it if he is running east/west... runs it if he's heading north/south. He is not adept at sliding in the pocket, but bails prematurely.

I love this San Capistrano blue-collar narrative... but Dad is a plumber... a medical gas plumber who pulls down 6-figues...

"Recruited" to play LB (nice Wikipedia use there)... yeah when he was a Sophomore in HS and the USC DC stopped by the school. At the time he was splitting his time between LB and WR.

Switched to QB but was hurt most of his JR year. Played his Sr. year. The started two years at USC. For those who are counting that's 3 years and change of QB'ing at the HS and College level.

Small wonder the kid lacks the biggest plus of all... read progressions.

Good player... good kid... posted good numbers despite many, many flaws from his feet to his elongated throwing motion (a source of turnovers) and questionable ball security and head.

If he's the next Browns QB as more and more sources are saying, then I will root for his success, but I'm going in with my eyes wide open.

Sorry , hmm I have been following sc recruiting and watching usc football since 1993 where I attended school had went to classes with Rob Johnson, Willie McGinest and Jason Seahorn.  I can pretty much say I know more about sc players than probably anyone on this board.  During summer, at Lyon center I would often play basketball with guys on the football team and talked to them about football like kyle waholtz and the late Darrall Russell.  Heck, I thought Dylon Mccutchen would have a hall of fame career as a Brown.  I knew Sammy knight was better than his 4.9 40 time at the combine that dropped him to either late rounds or FA pick up.   He was a real football player.  I was wrong about some players projection in the nfl like Rob Johnson, R J Soward, Matt Lienart.  I wished them to do well but l also knew Matt Barkley, John David Booty, mitch mustain, Cody Kessler pretty much will be lower tier qbs.  And I also hoped Randall Cunningham's kid who is on the sc track team who won the ncaa in high jump would play Qb at SC. He is a  jr i believe and was qb at Bishop Gorman high, LV. was the qb there before Tate Martell who was recently backup to j.t. at osu.  We also have a kid from Mater dei, power house sc pipeline along with Serra and long beach poly, have another qb JT Daniels coming in this fall who many  project to be the starter at the end of the season.  He as a jr won the gatorade high schoolnplayer of the year..just like matt barkley and Browne and reclassified to Sr. to graduate early.  I can tell you all about california  recruiting esp. Those involving usc.  And from my expert view of the two qbs....darnold is a winner.  Has that "it" factor.  Rosen was the chosen one...roster full of top 10~15 ranked recruiting classes with and after and never winning any games that mattered and lossing to inferior teams. He hasnt shown me that he can win games.  Matter of fact I think he is lesser qb than Cade Mcnown coming out of ucla.   I don't  know about Allen or Mayfield I know about the Darnold and Rosen.  Both may end up being Manning/Brady, however Darnold is a better prospect and will be better in the nfl.

@sd_tom said:

His career stats put his comp % at 62 I think.  You act like he was terrible in every game. Yeah,  he put up 90 yds in a game he left with a concussion.  That's an exception not the rule. What was the rule is he got hit way too much.  

Yeah,  the wins argument... Great call.  Then countless usc QB's should be world beaters in the NFL,  cuz they all win almost every single game.  Didn't really work out that way though. 

Head to head.  Rosen was 32/52 for 421 yds 3 tds and 1 int. Darnold was 17/28 for 264 zero tds (he had 1 rushing) and 1 int. 

So yeah,  ucla lost but it wasn't because Darnold was way better. 

Hmm...yeah Carson Palmer was barely above .500 winning perc before his senior year.  He blossomed under better coaching (norm chow, carroll) and defense, .  When the head coach was asked about darnold's funky thowing motion and bad footwork, he was quoted saying leave things that is working for us.  Basically, they didn't  want to tinker with it because we were winning.  SC started 1-3 in 2016 and most people in the program didn't believe in the hiring the current staff and players seemed to play below their potential.  When Darnold stepped in he changed the team into winners, and many close to the program will say he was the main factor for the turn around.  They also say coaching and play calling has hurt the program.  People who knows football like John Robinson, Lonnie Lott, Marcus Allen all have stated how this team lacked physicality along the line of scrimmage since the Coach Helton tenure.  They all have said how special Darnold is as well.  Listen to what Stanford coach says about Darnold he says best anticipatory thrower since Luck.  Listen to Joel Klatts and other experts who has watched and followed pac 12 football they will all say how special Darnold is.  And I agree with Jim Mora as well Darnold is better fit than Rosen. I do think Rosen has great potential, just pointing out there are more questions than Darnold.  I get what you say.  You make rational argument against him but I agree with the experts who have seen the games- how he makes 3rd and long possible every time he has the ball.  Comeback drives are possible with him.  With Kessler and Matt Barkley we didnt feel that way during the game.  They couldn't  overcome thing and situation.  Darnold did more often than not.   If you are basing on his game highlights tapes and not watching the entire game how things breakdown during the game and he seems to rise above that.  In the past 15 years of watching pac 12 football only qb comparable is Luck.

This is my take on darnold:

Pluses

One of the best Anticipatory thrower go checknthe comment by all of his oppsing coaches

Mobility in and out of the pocket- deceptively quick

Keeps his eyes down field at all times- this was one of the weakest when Cody kessler was the starter at sc.  He loves dumping the ball 5yard shy of the first down all the time.  Plus he had a weak arm.

He makes his teammates better.

Blue collar work ethics.  He was always an under dog. And he was beating the 1st team defense as a scout team qb as a teue freshman.

Toughness- He was first recruited as a linebacker

Youth - only 20...he will be much much better than Weeden when he was drafted as a 28 yr old.  As he physically matures he will get stronger and even bigger/taller.

Winner- even with his turnover , which is him trying to compensate for lack of talent experience around him, puts the team in a position to win.  Only two was blowout loss which was at ND and Cotton bowl.  20-4

Minuses

Turnovers- fumbles are well documented can be fixed by keeping both hands on the ball/ half of the ints were on th wrs for wrong-bad route running-

Youth - was a primarily a linebacker and wr as a sophomore inhigh school.  Was thrusted into the starting role when the started Travis Wilson qb, who would start for Utah, was injured.  He needs more experience at the position.  But so does all the qbs in this draft.  He also tries to do too much that's  lack of experience and coaching.

Footwork- he definitely needs to work on that.  At least he shows progress at his pro day.  When his feet are set he is accurate as any qb in the draft.

@sd_tom said:

Darnold also had an NFL rb in Ronald Jones. Had better talent at skill positions. 

Hard to win games when your defense allows 37ppg and gives up close to 500 yds a game

So you are saying that first, so his defense made his completion percentage in the 50s? His defense made him throw 3 ints?  So all ints weren't  Kiser's fault then.  Second, even though players they have is better than the oppsing team, it's  okay to lose the game as long as you have good mechanic and footwork?  Losing 13 games out of 30 in college mostly against lesser opponents is the quality you look for in a qb? 

@gumby73 said:

Welcome to the Browns OL. We now lose a HOF LT & the hope is to fill position with S.Coleman going from barely playing in 16 with 1 sack. To playing in 17 to tone of 8 sacks & most hurries from RT.Durango gave up 6 sacks in 16 than 10 in 17.Since 2015 this team ranked 30th,32nd to 27th, in hurries & sacks..Hell yes you get Tyrod & Stanton take those Qb hit for a year 🥷 Rosen & Darnold both ranked in the 20's under pressure.Mayfield ranks #1 under pressure. Allen's size may win out as a pinata, but his mechanics under pressure are god awful..The Browns staff can only help Darnold or any QB's upside by sitting in 18. My issue with Mayfield is what I thought & showed up at Senior Bowl. In a collapsing pocket his size can't see & balls were batted down in passing windows..If am Dorsey, ya never pass on your best QB option due to surrounding Issues..#1 Rosen..#2a/b Mayfield than Darnold (titanic faces large waves, under 30 days)  

Rosen couldn't  win at ucla when they were projected to challenge for the pac 12 title.  On paper they were as talented as any team in the pac 12.  They under achieved big time.  Rosen the chosen supposed to save ucla football as the #1 rated player out of high school but lost to bad teams and decent teams.  He did not make his teammates better.  Since 2014 ucla recruiting was in the top 20 until last year.  Watch his games and Darnold against the common opponents.  It's  night and day.  Watch vs. 2 Arizona schools and a quality opponent  Washington in 2017.  Against U of A he throws 3 picks has qb rating in the 90's. All three games his completion percentage in the 58% that's  Josh Allen range. Against Washington he has less than 100 yards passing.   In 2016 as a rs freshman  Darnold beats then undefeated Washington team at Washington.  Look, when darnold faced tough teams and won most of them and even the loses are headliners because they are.tough teams like Ohio st.  Rosen couldn't  win vs lesser teams.  Go watch those games he lost.  There are alot since he lost 13 games won only 17 games in 3 seasons he played at ucla.  

 I will even say  ucla oline was better than USC's in the past 2 years while darnold.was the qb.  SC after carroll left and NCAA sactions hit, stupid Kiffen/ Sarkisian mostly focused on skilled players...oline suffered the most  and I will say that past two years our oline has be3n the  most pathetic oline group ever.  Having no one projected to go in the first 3 rounds last year and this year.  Hell, no oline player was good enough to get an invitation to the combine this year.  Last year two were invited theu were the slowest players at the combine last year.  Since 1990s SC had so many NFL olineman...perhap one of the most if not the most until last 5 years no more 1st or 2nd round talents on the oline. Boselli, Baker,matt and sam Kilil Tyron Smith to name top off my head.

@the-gipper said:

The theory propounded on this is that this is just more of Rosen's "I don't want to play in Cleveland" schtick.   He asked his former coach to hype up some other QB to go to the Browns, thinking that that would persuade the Browns to not take him.

@sd_tom said:

Jim Mora thinks Darnold is the best fit for the Browns.  Pretty interesting.  He has stated before that he thinks Rosen and Darnold are both going to be awesome. 

Mora actually recruited Rosen and coached him for his entire ucla tenure.   Dline at ucla was very talented when they played Usc and could not faze Darnold.    Mckinnely 1st rd, dt Vanderdoes 3rd last year.  They recruited well while sc was still under NCAA sactions, hauling in players that limited sc from offering around the West.