Now THAT was cathartic.

@tour2ma said:

Reasonable summaries for Mack's year...

JJF,

I only formally graded through Week 7 this year and Mack was consistently at or near the bottom of our 5 OL. My sense is that he improved in the 2nd half of the season.

Chief among Mack's individual issues that I saw were an inability to prevent penetration when on the move in our ZBS. In 2014 you could use our OL as a ruler when they moved as a group... not so much in 2015. Someone always seemed to get blown backwards a couple yards and too often it was Mack, but it happened to all three of our interior OL.

Pre-injury 2014 Alex delivered strong chips on his way to the second level making both Bitonio's and Greco's lives much easier... and then he'd nail an LB. In 2015 his chips lived down to their name before continuing on... often missing a 2nd level assignment. He seemed "hurried" in 2015... like the game had sped up.

His PassPro play dropped off some in 2015, but not nearly as much as his run blocking. He might have gotten walked back an extra step by a strong bull rush, but was seldom cleanly beaten.

If you Keyword search "grades" in Titles only, you'll find a list of the Weeklies.

Is JAX looking to make a run at him in FA?

Perhaps. A bit of speculation on my part, given they made a strong bid for him a year or so ago, he is now free to leave, Jacksonville still has a hole at C, today, Caldwell said a player being 30-31 won't preclude the Jaguars from pursuing him if they think he can help.

Thanks guys for the perspectives.

@gumby73 said:

Shotgun snaps fine. Leg? (took Benjamin a full year to be right but technique not same) Our OL was a mess & confirmed by JT that losing a OL coach than combining ZBS of Shanny & Deflipo systems failed. Up to Seattle game our OL changed into something that was working to get some running game. What can you tell us on Sashi Brown JagsFan?

Not much, I'm afraid.

To my knowledge, he didn't play any role in building the roster or running a draft with the team. The bulk of his time was spent under Gene Smith (a disastrous time for us), and he first started under Shack Harris (not so bad). He hasn't been here under the current regime.

More of a cap person than a personnel guy.

@gftchris said:

With regards snaps, I don't remember the last time we had an issue from Mack.

A big factor of course is that he broke his leg last year, and that seemed to affect him. His play did improve over the course of the season but it's entirely possible his mind was on vacation. I'm sure there's a lot of vitriol directed towards him under the assumption that he's leaving, but were he to not opt-out he'd be welcomed back with open arms...which would promptly miss him on his way to the end zone.

Thanks for the input.

So were his anchoring in pass protection and drive blocking impacted most by the injury, do you think?

A Few Mack Questions

One of the subjects on this board that has been of particular interest to me is Alex Mack, since he signed an offer sheet with my Jaguars a while back, and it sounds as if he may be leaving you guys.

From reading this board, the general impression I get is that by his standards, this was a down year for him. If so, to what do you attribute this? Do you think it was lingering effects from his broken leg? How did the bad play manifest itself? I've seen some indicate he'd lose at the point of attack and get stuffed into the backfield. Did he lose mobility/pulling ability? Do you think somehow he lost motivation? I read one blurb/article (can't remember where) that indicated his play improved over the course of the year. Is this true?

One more question-as crazy as it sounds. How are his shotgun snaps? Have you guys had any problems with them from him? The past couple of years have been nightmarish for us in that area.

Zombo said:

I agree about skill position players, but in fairness, we never skipped a beat at TE. Cameron was replaced by Barnidge, who has played better, and has stayed healthier.

And McCown and Hoyer had the same weapons as Johnny.

In the 7 games where McCown took the majority of the snaps, the Browns averaged 21.8 points per game and 290.1 passing yards per game.

In the 7 games where Manziel took the majority of the snaps, the Browns averaged 15.3 points per game and 195.5 passing yards per game.

But, since the defense had its two best games of the year with Johnny under center, and held the lowly Titans to 14 and the lowly 49ers to 10 ... Johnny was better.

Our third best defensive game was holding the Chiefs to 17, but our QB was 13-32 in that game.

We gave up 24 or more points in all of McCowns starts ... but I'm sure that was his fault. Johnny "inspired" the defense.

Zombo

I stand corrected about the TE position, but the overall analysis remains unchanged. If ANY QB is to succeed in Cleveland, he'll need more help.

Zombo said:

Blake Bortles beat out Chad Henne.

Teddy Twatwater beat out Matt Cassell

Derek Carr beat out Matt Schaub

You mean a first round pick couldn't beat out EITHER Brian Hoyer (Career backup with 3 wins) OR Josh McCown (Career backup coming off 1-10 season)?

Zombo

(Emphasis added)

@tim-couch-pulls-out said:

None of them were put in a "QB competition". They were handed the reigns, and the coaches never flip flopped, regardless of how poorly they started.

You know, because their coaches aren't fucking morons.

It must be nice to take a guy and actually let him play.

(Emphasis added)

That's not how it happened with Bortles.

The original plan was to have him sit his entire rookie year. It was determined he had so many mechanical flaws he wasn't ready to start from jump, even though he showed signs of being special in preseason his rookie year.

Chad Henne started the first three games, and after two and a half projectile vomit inducing performances by Henne, they put Bortles in.

No, there was no "competition," but Bortles wasn't simply handed the job from the beginning, either. Bradley and (Jaguars GM) Dave Caldwell have both said though the plan was to have him sit, the experience Bortles gained his first year was invaluable.

Furthermore, in terms of preparation, Bortles exceeded the coaches expectations. He had command of the playbook. After his rookie season, he went to the same mechanics guru that Drew Brees uses and fixed the bulk of his mechanical issues. He initiated workouts with his receivers, also in California. Similar glowing reports of strong work ethic have been linked to Bridgewater, Winston, Mariota, and Luck. I do not recall similar reports coming out about Carr, but given his brother played in the league, it would not be surprising if the young Raiders' QB had the requisite work ethic too. Now I readily admit I am not as informed of Browns happenings as you guys are, and I will accept correction on this point, but it is my understanding there were issues with Manziel's preparation, to the point that teammates supposedly have called him out. Specifically, he did not know the playbook or the progressions his rookie year, and time that would have been spent on refining his mechanics, etc. after his rookie year was spent in rehab. I do not know of any workouts organized by Manziel with his receivers either. From the outside looking in, it seems partying has been his priority, which is why Pettine found it necessary to have the conference with him and ultimately demoting him to 3rd string immediately after naming him starter. Fortunately for Jaguars fans, at this, point, there have been no such meetings about Bortles, and hopefully it never will be. I haven't heard about similar meetings with any of Manziel's contemporaries. Just Manziel. Again, if there are details/facts I am missing, please enlighten me.

I will say this in fairness to Manziel. The suspension of the WR, the loss of TE Jordan Cameron, and the seeming failure to invest adequately in the skill positions would have a negative effect on any young QB. If you look at the great QBs over the decades, you will invariably see those teams invest heavily in skill positions after acquiring the franchise signal caller. Pittsburgh followed the Bradshaw drafting with Franco Harris and Lynn Swann in the first rounds. Aikman was followed in subsequent drafts by Emmitt Smith, Alvin Harper, Jimmy Smith, and Kevin Williams. Peyton Manning was drafted in the Colts by 1998. The Colts provided him with Edgerrin James, Reggie Wayne, and Dallas Clark. The Steelers followed the Roethlisberger draft with Heath Miller, Santonio Holmes, and Rashad Mendenhall. Luck was given Dwayne Allen, Coby Fleener and TY Hilton in the same draft, and Donte Moncrief and Phillip Dorsett in later drafts. The Raiders gave Carr Amari Cooper the next year. I think if there is going to be any hope of Manziel developing into the QB Browns fans hope, you have to give him the tools around him to succeed.

But he has to do his part.

@gumby73 said:

A welcome back to you & Thanks.. We can use some good outsider ballin debate so stick around & you have already proven more logical opinion than any Steeler Fan which is a lot on this board (oh yea JM fans too). For me it is a toss up between Connor Cook & Goff & I am leaning towards a 4 year senior from Mich. St. over a Cal kid. We also have a kid named Mingo that can't hold weight & wonder if Goff is that same kid? After we watch Pettine on our sideline & locker room, your Bradley shows the passion with players that we just don't have from Pettine nor his staff. It shows threw our players that we have no leaders that believe in his system. Has Hayes Pullard gotten any playing time with Jags? A. Pasztor from you has been playing well here, but it is Cleveland.. So stick around..

Thanks for the welcome back.

I had the concerns about Mingo's frame back when he was at LSU. I was never a big fan of his. Can't speak to Goff because now that it appears the Jaguars have finally found a good QB and fixed much of the offense, I have been focusing on the defensive players thus far. I will say if I were to err in picking a QB, I would err on the side of the more experienced player. Of course, that would have resulted in me potentially bypassing Bortles, so take that for whatever its worth.

Bradley does have passion, I grant you that, and the players love playing for him. But the passion has not been a substitute for talent and good coaching, and the results have not been what is desired despite the passion and positivity. He is firmly on the hot seat going into next year. The hope in Jaguars land now is that Bradley replaces Babich as defensive coordinator.

Pullard has just recently gotten playing time because Telvin Smith was hurt and missed the last game. Pullard showed some suddenness exploding into the backfield and dropping a Saints' RB in the backfield for a 3-4 yard loss, but stumbled covering a back out of the backfield and was beaten for a long gain. Given the Jaguars traditional hole at OLB, he's a guy I'd want to keep on the roster going into next year, but I'd prefer Jaylon Smith out of Notre Dame to be our Sam/OTTO next year. Pasztor had a strange career in Jacksonville. He played well for us the first year, then fell off the next. I still think he's a decent guy to have on your roster.

@the-gipper said:

Didn't we use to just call you JagOff?

Probably.

Goodness knows I've been called far worse.

Zombo said:

Well, welcome back! Thanks for lurking around.

Glad you guys kept Bradley, I think you have something cooking there.

Zombo

Believe me, a LOT of Jaguars fans are not happy about keeping Bradley. I see arguments on both sides, and to be honest I'm not entirely sold keeping him was the best thing, especially if it means missing out on better candidates like Sean Payton or Doug Marrone, even more if it means they end up in Indy working with Luck.

I was pretty sure Pettine would have been a good hire for you guys. Besides Manziel, what happened to derail him? I see some talent on the Browns.

Zombo said:

OK, how about the players in the same draft class, the four QBs taken in the first 36 picks:

Blake Bortles

29 G, 28 GS, 8-20, 58.9 Cmp%, 7,097 Yards, 46 TD, 4.4 TD%, 33 INT 3.1 Int% 6.8 YPA, 244.7 YPG, 80.9 Rating

Johnny Manziel

15 G, 8 GS, 2-6, 57.0 Cmp%, 1,675 Yards, 7 TD, 2.7 TD%, 7 INT 2.7 Int% 6.5 YPA, 111.7 YPG, 74.4 Rating

Teddy Twatwater

28 G, 27 GS, 16-11, 65.2 Cmp%, 6,051 Yards, 28 TD, 3.4 TD%, 20 INT 2.4 Int% 7.3 YPA, 216.1 YPG, 88.0 Rating

Derek Carr

31 G, 31 GS, 10-21, 59.4 Cmp%, 7,063 Yards, 52 TD, 4.6 TD%, 24 INT 2.1 Int% 6.2 YPA, 227.8 YPG, 83.9. Rating

Let's see ... They are ALL better at comp %, TD%, and passer rating ... but they aren't even close in rehab stints, lying about their whereabout and douchebag videos.

Now comes the "weapons" whining, those loaded teams Carr and Bortles inherited. Plus these guys got to start right away, they didn't have to beat out the likes of career backups Hoyer and McCown.

No dog in this fight here. Just an outside perspective.

It was far from a given that Marquise Lee, Allen Robinson, and Allen Hurns constituted "weapons" for Bortles. When most QBs are drafted, they usually have weapons already on the team when they arrive (P. Manning had Marvin Harrison; Aikman had Irvin waiting for him; Luck had Reggie Wayne) or subsequently add weapons (Colts added Reggie Wayne and Edgerrin James after Peyton; Steelers added Santonio Holmes after Big Ben). It is very rare that a QB and two good WRs are added by one team in the same draft. Hurns was undrafted, and Robinson was hurt midway through his rookie year, and there was no semblance of an offensive line or running game his rookie year. Furthermore, the Jaguars were working with an inexperienced OL coach (George Yarno was diagnosed with cancer and missed last year and this year and was replaced by inexperienced Luke Butkus), and changed coordinators from year one to year 2.

I say all of this to illustrate that Bortles did not have an unlimited arsenal at his disposal when he arrived in Jacksonville last year. While as it turns out he had better skill players around him than Manziel, he certainly did not have a better O-Line or more coaching stability than Manziel.

I think he also had better physical tools and intangibles than Manziel.

As a Jaguars fan, I am more relieved than words can express that we took Bortles over Manziel. I wanted no part of the Manziel circus here. I saw him as a cross between Flutie and Ryan Leaf.

To me, the sooner the Browns move on from Manziel, the better.

Zombo said:

Good comments re climate.

Hey are you the resident Jags fan we had on the old AOL board? Thompson or something? We went round and round on Bottlegate, and I just want to tell him ... No, it never happened to another team again, we were ripped off and the only team ever to run two plays and then get a call two plays ago reversed.

Z

I am he-LThomp5490.

@gumby73 said:

Has not Committed. Question NFL durability at 210 lbs? In a AFCN climate at Utah not good. Love the ball he throws but does he beef up before the NFL Combine & does it affect his accuracy if he does? Tick Tock & could be a trade down option if no Bosa.

First off, I'd like to say, as the username suggests, I am a Jaguars fan-yes we DO exist. I do not come with the purpose to talk trash or anything. I just love talking/debating football and like getting the perspectives of fans from other teams.

I've read this board periodically, and as I did on the old AOL boards, I enjoy reading a lot of the posters. I remember Zombo, Ghoolie, Hoorta, and WSSteve, and probably a few others I have not mentioned. The quarterback discussions here have intrigued me, but for some reason I felt compelled to reply to this particular post.

I think if the Browns think he is that guy, you have to pull the trigger on him, climate be damned. There have been many instances where warm weather college QBs have thrived with cold weather teams. Fran Tarkenton went to Georgia and had a Hall of Fame career in Minnesota. Brett Favre had a Hall of Fame career in Green Bay despite being from Mississippi. He was succeeded by Aaron Rodgers, who went to Cal, like Goff. Of course, I don't need to remind Browns fans about Sipe (San Diego St.) and Kosar (Miami-yes I know he is originally from Ohio) who thrived in Cleveland. I don't wish to rile you guys up by naming him (I still hate the Steelers), but Terry Bradshaw illustrates this point further.

The bottom line is QB is so hard to find, if you are in a position to take a franchise QB, don't bypass him because of climate.

Good luck to you guys in the future-just not against us.