http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/12034411/bernie-kosar-blames-uneducated-browns-front-office-johnny-manziels-cleveland-field-struggles

I'm saying it's a stat that is less valuable than "football people" have lead the public to believe.

QB goes 30/45 for 240yds or QB goes 23/45 for 320yds

Which QB had a greater impact in the teams offensive production?

Completion percentage on its own is a bullshit statistic. It's what those completions produce that actually matters.

@browntown said:

http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/passing/sort/completionPct

Nuff said.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/passing/sort/yardsPerPassAttempt

Completion percentage is a bullshit stat. It's only important if you relate a high percentage of complete passes to yards gained. I'm not going to argue Hoyer is as accurate as Rodgers. If all you want to look at is Completion Percentage, Touchdowns, and QB Rating, it's not worth even attempting to have a discussion about how effective a QB is.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2014/passing.htm#passing::18

Would you care to look at total touchdowns scored by an offense, both rushing and passing?

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?seasonType=REG&offensiveStatisticCategory=TOUCHDOWNS&d-447263-n=1&d-447263-o=2&d-447263-p=1&d-447263-s=TOUCHDOWNS_RUSHING&tabSeq=2&season=2014&role=TM&Submit=Go&archive=false&conference=null&defensiveStatisticCategory=null&qualified=false

And then tell me, what offenses have been this efficient running the ball, and scoring touchdowns on the ground, and still have a QB who has thrown for whatever you feel is an impressive number of touchdowns?

And no one seems to be willing to consider, that Brian Hoyer still only has fewer than one seasons starts in the NFL. Sitting behind a starter in practice, picking up a limited number of reps, I don't think a QB is going to develop at the same pace they would by getting starts in games with first team players, and first team reps in practice. I think it's likely Hoyer will get better in these statistical categories people seem to think are important.

@stocktonshorts said:

Brian Hoyer last 6 games

52%

4TDs

7INTs

70 passer rating

Miller High Life in a Champagne League

I suppose it's a good thing they play 16 games, and the division tiebreaker isn't "worst random small sample size stat you can find to support an argument"

Lumbergh.

He'd just trade them all for draft picks so he could draft more quarterbacks, because that's the only position that matters.

@stocktonshorts said:

If you think for 1 second that last comment you made is a true statement, then you have to quit talking. Have to. Brian Hoyer isn't even close to Alex Smiths ability and Alex Smith was ousted for Kaepernick and the Niners only got better.

If you can't see a difference, just by talent, if you can not see a difference between Joe Flacco and Eli and Brian Hoyer, then you're drunk in love. You're beyond saving. Everyone loves to rail against the "Manziel Lovers" who don't really exist on this board and you can't see the love affair you all have with Brian Hoyer where you act like hes something he never has been nor never will be. He's not in the same class as Flacco and Eli and he's not in the class behind the class of those two.

Like I said, I don't blame you people for loving Hoyer. He is a small time nobody getting his shot. You relate to him. He's the extension of you. Someone time will quickly forget ever existed and is completely unremarkable in every way. You see yourself in him. You're comfortable with Hoyer.

You missed the part where I said I don't give a shit if Hoyer is the starting quarterback on this team when it's good, didn't you?

Like I said, reading comprehension. Work on it. We'll still be here when you get back.

Hoyer is on pace for what, 4000yds 20 TDs 8 INTs at about a 59% completion rate.

Check out Hall Of Famer Eli's career numbers.

Check out Super Bowl MVP Joe Flaccos.

Kaepernick helps his team win some games, and he just about single handedly loses them a few too. I'd rather have boring ass Brian Hoyer, or Alex Smith, than that at QB.

Russell Wilson is fine. He's in a situation where he can succeed. He wasn't asked to do too much as a rookie. They had a solid team around him, and he won the job straight out of training camp. Something the guy on our bench, didn't.

I didn't say any of them were terrible. I do think 3 of those 4 are some of the most over rated players in the league. You can read that however you want. Seems to be your style anyway.

But it's my opinion that if all 4 of those guys were drafted by the Cleveland Browns their rookie years, they would be backing up someone on another team right now.

I can't reason with idiots. All I can do is suggest you look at some statistics, and practice your reading comprehension skills, and get back to us when you've made sense of it all.

I don't give a shit how a quarterback was acquired. Whether it be injury, or a quick hook from the coaching staff, this organization has continuously burned through quarterbacks. Acting exactly how you say a franchise should behave. 5 to 8 games and it's on to the next one until you find the next Peyton Manning. That doesn't work.

The Browns have drafted several QBs, and they were inserted into situations set up for them to fail. The very same situations the QBs we acquired through other means, failed.

Your list of names there. How many of those names could step into a Browns uniform today, and carry this team as it is right this moment, to a championship? Because after all, that's all that matters.

Or do we for once, try it differently? Maybe build a good team around the quarterback position, with depth, experience, and a little bit of success and the confidence that comes with it. Set up whoever the hell is at quarterback, to succeed, and not put the outcome of every game squarely on their shoulders every week.

If you think this team is one quarterback away from being a title contender, you're insane.

If you think the way to build a team is say, fuck the rest of the players, you have to start with a quarterback, you're an idiot.

And for the record, Flacco, Wilson, Kaepernick, Eli, not great quarterbacks. They have played on very good teams, and managed not to fuck it up for the rest of 'em. Those names right there, define exactly what I'm looking for with the Browns. Give me a defense that can play like those defenses, a line that can protect the quarterback, running backs who can move the ball, and receivers who can get open, and I'll show you a successful quarterback. I don't know if Brian Hoyer is going to be the starting quarterback if/when the Browns build that team. But I don't know that Johnny "Football" is either. What I do know, is that Brian Hoyer isn't the reason the 2014 Cleveland Browns aren't winning the Super Bowl. As long as that is true, I see no reason to push Johnny "Football" onto the field when it's obvious to the coaching staff that he is not at a point where he can successfully compete on an NFL field.

And also for the record, I think Johnny Football is a douche bag. I cringed when they drafted him. But once he puts on a Browns uniform, he's our douche bag. Hell I've rooted for, and defended on this very forum, Braylon Edwards and Kellen Winslow.

So, if you've been around that long, and are as intelligent as you seem to think you are, you should have noticed that what has actually kept the Browns from getting out of the cellar of this division, has been throwing QB after QB behind a line that can't protect for shit. Drafting QB after QB, and saying "let's see what he's got" a handful of games into each season, whether he's ready for it or not. Asking them to throw the ball to receivers that can't get open, without being able to run the ball at all.

I don't see this Browns team as a playoff team. I frankly don't give a shit if they do make the playoffs this year. What I do think is important, is that this team learn to win some games. They're winning ugly, but there is value in that, long term. And as long as your QB isn't costing you games, you stick with what you have.

They said today, your boy, Johnny, only reads half the field. 2 looks, pulls it down and runs. In practice. You want to guess how that plays out in a full speed NFL game, for a guy who isn't as quick or elusive as ESPN wants you to believe?

Hoyer makes some bad throws. He makes some great throws. He doesn't cost the rest of the team games. Brady/Manning have completely obscured what it means to be a "franchise quarterback." A term I hate in itself. Throw that completion percentage around to support your argument. Go head. Because that one number is one of the more worthless numbers with which to measure a quarterback. Have a look at how many "franchise quarterbacks" in your memory have career completion percentages of 65-70%. And when you realize very few winning quarterbacks throughout the 80s and 90s even flirted with 65% a season, let alone for a career, maybe you'll start to ask yourself, "what numbers should I be looking at to measure the success of a starting quarterbacks in the NFL?"

I suspect you won't. Because while you claim everyone here is missing the obvious, blinded by their stupidity, you are as guilty or more so, of the very same. So troll on. I only bothered to respond hoping that you are half as intelligent as you think, and will try to think about things objectively.

Because they're bad, he's 31, and they owe him 10 mil a year through 2016?

We already have a 6'5" pass catcher Shanahan can't figure out how to use.

@miktoxic said:

there are some deficiencies i see in this coaching staff that needs to be addressed. shanny jr. doesn't have to be frickin josh mcdaniel's or mr. whoopee. these guys think they have something to prove and want to be the next zen master. FUCKING POUND THE ROCK until the other team stops you. fuck you see it every saturday. make the other team stop your successful shite.

Thank you. Stop the Shanahanagins. Four separate 4th quarter possessions, with the lead, at home, and we're going to go with about a 30/70 run/pass split. I realize situations dictate you pass. Crowell loses 8 on 1st down, 2nd and 3rd we're passing. Fine.

On top of that, as much as I like Crowell, he's not the guy I want to be handed the ball in the 4th quarter right now. He doesn't seem patient at all. I like that he runs hard, sure. But thus far, he's all or nothing. 2 yard loss, no gain, or breaks off 15yd runs. West seems to at least pick up a couple of yards every time he touches it. West should be getting 2x the carries late in a game like today. Just my opinion.

And on a side note, the "pistol" is F'ing stupid.

https://twitter.com/TheRealBobEvans/status/511922558942576640

@tour2ma said:

And yet you claim to live in "the blueberry"...

I know, right?

@tour2ma said:

On the rules I agree... but my point is that knowing "the rules" is not the same as knowing that "if I spend 29 minutes in a closed car with the ventilation on recirculate in the presense of smoke, then I will test positive two-days from now."

Yea, exactly where I was going with that. The reason people have always believed you can't fail for second hand smoke, is because no one considers such small ppm a failure. No one except the NFL apparently.

And listen, I don't smoke. I wouldn't even vote to decriminalize or legalize it if it were on the ballot. So my opinion on this matter isn't even about "pot should be legal" "what's the big deal?" "booze is just as bad," etc. I don't believe in conspiracy theories like if he played for the Steelers, or Patriots, the penalty would be reduced. I really just feel the NFL arbitrarily throws out punishment by suspension or fine. Roger claims he's made all these changes to the game in order to protect players and make the game safer. If that were a priority to Roger, he'd handle these types of disciplinary situations differently. Suspend the guy 16 games if you feel that's appropriate, but there should be more to it. If for some ridiculous reason he should be banned from all team activities, then mandate that during his 16 game suspension, he spend time in rehab, sober living, with a life coach, listening to goddamned Tony Robbins cassette tapes. Surely Roger can make a player do any or all of the above, if he's already able to make them piss in a cup 5 times a week, as ridiculous as that is.

If the health of the players in the league, the long term sustainability of the league, and competitive health of all of the leagues individual franchises was actually important to Roger, and not just the image he can market for advertising contracts, this would all be handled differently.

Mark Cuban might not be far off.

@texasag1969 said:

Sorry friend you are just plain wrong. I spent 10 years of my career in a VA Domiciliary where we tested often. I probably heard that second hand smoke story 7-8 times a year (yep that means about 70-80 times total) and when it all came out in the wash, every single one of them turned out to by lying about it. Plus who cares how he got it? Don't want a positive then don't be around it at all. Oh, and just wait till the DUI gets adjudicated. Yeah, he's just an innocent guy with a track record that matches the lies.

Yes, and when was that? How refined was the testing procedure back then? What concentration registered a failed test? And because some guys you dealt with at that time, failed and tried to get out of it by lying, then all those who question the accuracy of a drug test for the rest of human existence, are the very same "liars" you met once upon a time.

@tour2ma said:

Aldon's "9" does not include the 5 he missed while in rehab last year... so I'm not irritated by the length of his 2014 suspension.

What irritates me is that he got to have a face to face with Goodell and gets to stay involved with the team throughout his suspension.

The latter is something any player "with a problem" would benefit from. The former either should be part of the process all the time or none of the time...

But to me the biggest injustice is an arbitrator with long and close ties to the league. Such a person simply does not meet the definition of the word:

ar·bi·tra·tor

/ˈärbiˌtrātər/

noun: arbitrator; plural noun: arbitrators

an independent person or body officially appointed to settle a dispute.

And this I agree 100% with. I won't argue against the rules for Josh Gordon. He knew the rules. He knew the next one was 16 games when he made the deal last year. I'm 99.9% sure he has not smoked since. Just not possible to pass that many consecutive tests, over that period of time.

But if the NFL really gives a damn about the teams in its league, their players, and their fans, who allow this league to exist, it should be a priority to do the right thing by the players in all of these disciplinary decisions. I don't have a problem with how the league handled Aldon Smith. I do have a huge problem with the fact that the same support will not be provided for Josh Gordon, or any other player who may find himself in a similar situation.

I really didn't want to rehash all the same BS that has been going back and forth here from the beginning of this Josh Gordon story. I don't come around here often anymore. But I have to say, I'm surprised by the number of people that would give up on Gordon and want to cut him.

I'm guessing some bickering over who would be included in the deal. Rockies maybe showing they aren't afraid to keep him if thr Indians won't send enough in return.

Perhaps just giving him a little work to keep him on schedule.

I don't like the deal because I don't give a damn whether thr Indians win the central or not. I don't want to see fukudome, kearns, hannahan, etc. In thr lineup. I don't want to see Ludwick on the roster tomorrow.

I feel it is in the best interest of the team to ride out 2011 with the youth we have on offense. See how they handle a race this late in the year, see if they can dig out of a hole. It's valuable experience for just about everyone on the roster.

I don't care about McBride either. I just don't like dealing the top 2 pitching prospects in the organization. If ubaldo somehow regains his command, and finds the 5mph that fell off of his fastball, it certainly makes the rotation stronger. Hell even if he just continues to do what he's done outside of Coors this year, we're better.

I just feel like the young hitters need some "seasoning" to really compete. I'd prefer to see white in the rotation to start next year, and Pomeranz being first option up in June. When the deadline rolls around next year, and maybe need help, then make a move with a much better base.

It doesn't mean anything to me for the Indians to move two 2012 starters to win the central in 2011.

I have to admit a couple of things that probably aren't shared by many around here... One of the best things about baseball is watching prospects, predicting what they can do, and when they can be up here. I also don't give a damn if the Indians or browns win a title in my lifetime. I only ask they be competitive because I'm going to watch anyway, it's just a lot more fun when the season isn't over half way through.

They're talking Alex White, Drew Pomeranz, and 1B prospect Matt McBride. Possibly a 4th involved in the deal as well.

I'm hoping this doesn't happen, but as the time passes, it looks more and more likely.

Just came out after the 1st inning tonight. 2 hits, 4 walks, 4 earned.

Chuck Lofgren was lost to the Brewers in the Rule 5 draft.

While he struggled a bit last year after being promoted to AAA, he has nice #s over his MiLB career thus far and it's really hard for me to believe that he wasn't on the 40. They had an open spot on the 40 to take advantage of the Rule 5, and managed to pick up Hector Ambriz from AZ.

Ambriz has to be in the mix for a bullpen spot here in Cleveland, and Lofgren the same with the Brewers. Granted, if neither make the MLB roster, or stay there all year, they could very easily wind up back with the DBacks and Indians.

About the only attractive statistic with Ambriz is keeping the ball in the ballpark. I think career wise he's under .5HR per 9IP.