@jrb12711 said:

man I hope this gets done. I think it's clear Holmgren wants to be a front office guy. I'm sure you guys have heard he turned down the bills today. Maybe he just didn't want to coach the bills, who knows. I take that as a somewhat sign though that he knows he could make bank to do his thing at a proverbial desk rather than on the sidelines

Couldn't agree more on waiting though. It's nice to see we aren't rushing into things.

Tim Ruskell the VP/GM of Seattle is stepping down after the season and Seattle is supposedly interested in Holmgren taking over the job.

@brownindian said:

if we are going to run the ball can we put Jerrome Harrison to run and not to block ?

The only productive running is Cribbs in the WildDawg. So, the question for me is; why isn't he lining up as outr running back instead of Lewis, Jennings and Harrison.

Cribbs can get yardage inside. He can bounce outside and he can catch it out of the backfield. So, why is he a WR? Tell me Harrison or Jennings can block better then Cribbs?

@the-gipper said:

You can tell this list is bogus because it has Tebow as the #1 rated QB coming out of the draft. And Jimmy Clausen and Jake Locker aren't even in the Top 13 or so. The Browns may pick up a QB with one of their 11 picks. It all depends on who is brought in here to run the show, be it Holmgren or Casserly or Cowher or Jim Thorpe.

Actually, it is because they are the seniors. They don't include the underclassmen in their lists until they declare after the season. Clausen is a Jr. and may not even come out. I believe Locker is a Jr. Also.

That's why these list are bogus now. In a month they will be completely changed. there should be a big, strong group of undeclassmen coming out this year because of the scare of a rookie pay scale in a new players agreement.

@tim-couch-pulls-out said:

If we go with a QB in the 1st, I will hunt Lerner down myself and systematically strip naked and rub my asscheeks directly on his face.

Locker may be a good QB but right know he might not even be a first round pick.

I think Anderson is as good as gone. NO way would you want to keep him with his big salary (not guaranteed) for 2010. Quinn has a very light basic salary comparable to the average backup Qb salary and Ratliff is at the NFL minimum.

I agree that bringing in a veteran QB as a stopgap would be a good move because I'm not sold on this years QB class. Especially with a top 5 pick. There are some interesting guys I'd take a flyer on later in the draft but as of now, not a high #1.

There are too many needs on this team and too many top guys like Suh and Berry. We desparately need a RB, shutdown corner, LB, RT and TE.

If there's a can't miss QB available I'd say take him but I don't see it.

@tim-couch-pulls-out said:

We're screwed! Our defense is lost! Noooooo.....

and you think he was the glue holding this #32 ranked defense together. you sound like his loss will kill our season.

look at it this way, it could help our pass defense because teams will just run the ball down our throats. Then people can say................WOW McDonald didn't gibve up a TD pass the last 8 games of the year.

It's like saying, if Lewis goes down I don't know what we will do for a running game.

@neohionative said:

The childish secrecy didn't help the matter, and if neither quarterback was so obviously grossly unqualified for the position, as head coach it was his responsibility to trade one or both, or at the very least provide a viagle alternative. Widely reported? My ass, there were plenty of teams in need of a starting QB this year that BQ or DA could've been sent to. He ruined their trade value, by hiding the fact he thought they both sucked up until the opening game, putting Quinn in just long enough to look awful and then yanking him in favor of a guy that sucked worse against more pathetic teams, and not reinstating Quinn earlier.

Is that you Eric?

You are right that there were plenty of teams that wanted QBs this year and none would take either of ours. Anderson even had most of his salary paid and nobody would take him. Quinn's contract actually may have stopped teams in their tracks. Who wants to trade for a guy who would have a $11 million bonus kick in if he ended up being your starter.

So, when you are stuck with a guarantee contract that nobody wants (Anderson) and a bonus that Quinn couldn't live up to, how is it the coaches responsibility to trade the guy. Let me say it again, nobody would trade for any value. Of course, that was before training camp opened, then their value dropped even further after teams saw them play preseason games. Couldn't even put up TDs against second teams and vanilla defenses.

Was it childish secrecy or was it really the fact that neither could step up and claim the job. The whole training camp was one step forward and two steps back.

Besides, where is it written that a coach has to bare his sole to the media........................screw that. The team knew and that's all that counted. Just like the team knows now who will be starting Monday night against the Ravens. I don't think they really care if Mary Kay or Grossi doesn't like the fact that they aren't privy to the decision yet.

Bottom line is that Quinn will get another chance and it's his opportunity or it's goodbye. If he sucks as bad as the beginning of the year they most likely will end up with Ratliff and we will see both your boys gone next year.

@joesixpat said:

Let's start with the QB situation alone, and leave aside the fact that he had more talent on this team than many previous Brown coaches have had (in which they've achieved better records.)

Magnini - as the defacto GM and Coach - had thousands of hours of tape to review, and determined that rather than use the #5 pick for a premier Rookie QB, or rather than attempt to trade for any number of veteran QBs, he clearly felt confident that either Quinn or Anderson could get the job done.

He presumabley assessed their talent, determined that he had the QB he needed on staff (or else he would have drafted, traded or signed a free agent) and he'd keep one and would trade the other for decent value.

Would you say he handled that situation well?

Would you say Mangini's decision not to make a deciison until just days before the start of the situation improved the confidence of his chosen QB?

Would you say that showing 2 games worth of confidence in Quinn was wise after he told the players previously that he'd stand behind his choice? What do you think that does to others on the team who have received similar expressions of Mangini's "confidence" in them?

And would you say that Mangini's handling of the sitation has improved the trade stock of either or both QBs?

In other words, has Mangini's leadership and decision making process made the Browns stronger or weaker at QB and has he improved or ruined the trade value of two NFL quarterbacks?

And bear in mind we're only talking about his handling of one and only one position or issue on the team.

My assessment is on this one matter Mangnini has handled it as poorly as I've ever seen and NFL coach or GM handle a situation and his poor decision making and leadership skills has set the Browns further back, not helped them move forward.

But that's just my opinion. Others may think things are going exceptionally well at the QB position.

Thanks for your opinion on the matter, as usual it isn't worth shit. How do you mishandle a situation when neither QB did shit in summer camp and both tried to give the job away daily. Neither could perform worth a shit in preseason games and both have proven to be just what Mangini feared when he was trying to trade them in the preseason, overrated and unproductive players. So, again, how do you mishandle a situation where there is no winning senerio?

If either player had great trade value they would have been traded. Don't even believe rumors that the team was offered anything close to any real value for either. Quinn was offered to the Jets, Lions and Denver and all turned the offers down. Mangini tried to trade Quinn all spring (widely reported). Denver only kept the Brown's hanging in case they got rid of Cutler and couldn't get a QB in return. They wanted Quinn and wanted Cleveland to take Campbell. They wouldn't have come close to trading a top draft pick for him. That was Quinn's value. The best the Brown's were offered for either was a 3rd. So, again, please tell me how Mangini ruined the trade value of two QBs that didn't have much to begin with?

You spew a whole lot of crap my friend but you really don't have a clue.

Dawgfanforever88 said:

Whats your take on the kokinis situation? ernie accorsi recommended him and he is a football guy. Is it a case of you can't be right all the time no matter who you are?

Actually Accorsi didn't recommend Kokinis, he recommended the Pro Personnel director of the giants and Lerner went with Mangini's recommendation. But as it is being documented now, Kokinis definately stepped in over his head. I remember at training camp that he wouldn't even talk to people. He would be off by himself and was unapproachable. Never really saw him interact with the HC. Also, there is still something there regarding his relationship with O'Brien. Maybe both were just putting out feelers and befriended each other because they were very unhappy in Cleveland.

Accorsi is a very well respected football man and well liked throughout the league. I don't think the door is shut on him yet. And, you are right saying "you can't be right all the time". Nobody is and especially in the NFL. I would have to qualify that and say with the exception of JoeSixPat, who thinks nobody else's opinions are worth shit and he is always right.

The Browns are looking for a person to run the football side of the organization. they are looking for a VP who would bring in his own GM and then evaluate and decide on Mangini's future after the season.

It also means that the new guy running the operation would have sole control and Lerner would be an absentee owner, much to his liking. Problem is don't look for this to happen overnight. The movement in midseason is not usually appropriate. I could see the head of football operations coming in, setting up shop and evaluating the situation within the organizaqtion but I don't see the new guy putting his team in place until after the season.

It would seem to be an ideal job for someone like Accorsi, Wolf, McKay or even Holgram. They get the final say, ala Percels, and get to put there trusted staff together and have an owner who has deep pockets and will put out the money to win.

The right guy could just about name his ticket.

Don't discount Tom Heckert. He is very well respected around the league and is said to have great vision. Very solid at evaluating talent.

I'd think Mangini would want to protect what trade potential Quinn might have left. The reason I think he may start Anderson and then bring Quinn in and let Quinn play against the lower ranked defenses to close out the season.

Everybody knows that Anderson's value is zero but they can still get something for Quinn. Personally, I don't think either will be around next year. That's where the new football decision makers will want to start in rebuilding the team. So, it doesn't make sense to ruin what trade value Quinn still might have.

Just what we need...................another washed up, over the hill RB.

How about we start doing it the right way. Let's go out and draft a top notch RB and quit taking other teams scraps.

The important thing is that the new person in charge of football operations would bring in his GM and they would evaluate Mangini and his "PROCESS" at the end of the season and go from there. There would be an organization of knowledgable football personnel and not a coach doing as his feels and being the talking head.

It would also allow Randy to be the absentee owner that he wants to be.

My son has just started working for an on line pro football publication and has talked to a couple of his contacts left from when he did an internship with the Browns.

They would not confirm the names but noted that is the process that Lerner wants to develop. A VP of football operations simular to Parcel and have him be the mouth piece, make the decisions and run the show. I would think most of the above mentioned people would have to think very hard about keeping Mangini at the end of the season.

I love the notion that it is Mangini's fault.

If he took over a team with real talent and solid impact players people would be singing his prases like they were in New York his first year. Somewhere between his first year and second year he forgot how to coach football. I'm sure it didn't have anything to do with the fact that he didn't have a healthy QB and had other injuries that severely impacted the team's season. And last season they were headed to the playoffs until Favre blew out his arm, the team didn't quit on him. The QB shit the bed and blew three games down the stretch because he coldn't throw the ball.

So, the bottom line is coaches are great when they have talent and seem to suck when they don't. Gruden sucked and was fired but somewhere along the line the was smart enough to take a team to the super bowl. Shanahan was a great coach when he had talent. The best example was everybody wanted to run Belechick out of town when he was here because he was a control freak, fined players and the media hated him (sounds familiar).

As much as you may hate to admit it, it isn't as much about the coach or system then it is about the talent on the team. Teams win with impact players who can execute plays. It really doesn't matter if it's a 3-4 or 4-3 defense, running attack or passing attack. You need players who can make plays.

Many people here over the last few years have tried to tell all the "knee Jerkers" that we just don't have an abundance of talent and we don't have impact players.

This is a QB driven league. We don't have one. Was Mangini very secretive about his QB pick this year? Yes, and for good reason, they both suck. We don't have a QB that can execute and move the offense to score points. We go through a whole preseason and our QB derby comes down to a guy who threw one TD pass all preseason. Can you think of a reason why Mangini couldn't really make a decision until the end of camp. This was a competition of who sucked the less.

It starts at QB but then you also have to have talent around him. We don't have that either. You have a line that can't block and receivers that can't catch and RBs that are too slow getting to holes. The players have been coached, they just aren't that good.

Bottom line is the coach is as good as the players he's got. Now, if he has been there 3 years and the players still stink, then he has to share the blame.

So the bullshit about Mangini being the worst coach, is just that. Put the blame where it belongs. You have an owner that hasn't built a stable organization. He's made bad decisions because he hasn't brought in real football people to help him run the show. As far as Mangini...............................coaches need players.

Get a QB...........it starts there, not replacing a coach and bringing in another guy who will suck because he doens't have any talent.

One thing to remember.....................................the sports media are paid to be controversial to get people to watch their shows or buy their papers. Most know about as much as you and me.

LOL at the whole thread and you talk about knee jerk reactions and speculation.

Kokinis was laying the meat to O'Brien. That's why he is gone, didn't have anything to do with the draft and Mangini didn't throw him under the bus. He was asked to resign by the team President and when he refused he was fired and excorted from the building.

He will not be paid the remainder of his contract. He was fired using the standard of conduct clause that is basic in all contracts. Kokinis will have to take the Brown's to court to get anything or agree to a settlement with Lerner.

Lerner had started an investigation into this situation more then a few weeks ago. His computer was confiscated to preserve emails between him and O'Brien. Lew Merletti and his men escorted Kokinis from the building. As you know O'Brien resigned last week when approached. Kokinis refused to resign.

Remember, Lerner doesn't get involved in football matters unless he has to.

@destinfunk said:

who says Ernie likes EM?

Ernie loved kokinis..and he is gone

Accorsi was Lerner's point man and adviser during the coaching search. Lerner even noted that he discussed hiring a coach before a GM with Accorsi. When the old man died the first place Randy went to seek advice was his mentor, the owner of the Giants and he became friends with Accorsi when he was still GM of the Giants. They have remained close ever since. Lerner has referred to him as a father figure, a person he can go to for solid advice about the NFL.

Do I know for sure that Accorsi recommended Mangini? NO, but he sure as hell was Lerner's adviser during the interview process. Supposedly Accorsi told Lerner to let Pioli walk because of his excessive demands.

If Accorsi isn't the man he will have a say in who Lerner picks.

I don't think it will be Kosar.................................

Look for a veteran football guy to come in as Pres. or V.P. of Football operations and he will hire a GM.

JMO

@flugel said:

Warning: I'm not ready to be rationale so I'm just sharing some of the disturbing thoughts bouncing around in my dome.

I'd Lerner him to inform EVERY player before the game on Monday Night that entertainers paid great cake to entertain aren't entertaining if they can't block, tackle, catch, pass or hit the hole. "Be prepared to LOSE a game check fellas if you lay an egg together on MNF. This is your team building challenge - you've got TWO WEEKS to prepare so make it happen!"

These guys don't need a best friend, nice guy or clergy blessing. They need a basterd willing to insert a size 14 shoe up their dumpsters.

I'm so sick of this crap! Start cutting some of these waste of uniforms that CAN'T catch and look to who's on the open market right now. Anyone of us would cut off an arm to run around covered like a blanket and drop the rare passes that will touch our hands for a minimum of $250K. I HAVE to believe between Joey Galloway, Marvin Harrison, Matt Jones and yes David Patten that 1 of them is better than the goofballs we have out there today. I realize BOTH our QBs have been disappointing. If you're an enormous Quinn fan - don't you want him to have someone legitimate to throw to. I think MoMass CAN become a decent #2 Wr like he was on his college team last year to freshman AJ Green. If we bring in a FA, he's not stealing ANY future #1 WR's spot on this team nor are we trading away any value to acquire him. You can't throw the ball with any consistency if you don't have a guy that can win a matchup downfield no matter who is playing QB.

- Tom F.

I agree to the extent that we drafted two potential #2 receivers in the second round of the draft and we got another slot receiver in Stuckey for Edwards. That gives us 3 slot receivers (Stuckey, Furrey and Cribbs) and two rookies that have the potential to be #2 receivers. Plus, we don't have a TE worth a shit. sorry to Heiden but he just hasn't come back from his many injuries.

Let's see.............................

OL has gone down hill. Got to get a RT to stabilize the right side. There are no skilled position players on this team that could start for for any contender in the NFL (I count Cribbs as a special teams player, not a skilled position player).

DBs are pathetic. Wright is the only above average player. Need a shut down corner and a safety that can tackle and at least cover a TE. Elam is a decent backup at best and Pool couldn't tackle me in the open field.

There is some promise in the young LBs but so far that is it. No impact players. Wimbley has improved.

DL is solid..........................that's about the best you can say about this team.

So..................................can we get a shut down corner, a safety, a impact ILB & OLB, a TE, a RB and a QB. And we could probably use a veteran WR while we see if the draftees we took this year can cut it.

@vdogrowz said:

Ytown, how could Lerner be pixxed about Quinn getting benched given the escalators in his contract? Did BQ do anything in 2 1/2 games to show he even might be worth $11myn this yr and a big raise for next? Mangini did not draft BQ or sign him to that contract, but he has to live with it. My guess is that we'll see all we want of BQ for the rest of the season and be glad we saved the $11myn+, but I hope BQ proves me wrong

BQ has always been Lerner's boy and a reason Mangini gave him the job to begin with. I'm not saying BQ will do any better with this misfit organization but Lerner wants him and wants the QB controversy stopped.