PFF ranks Baker Mayfield tenth best QB heading into 2021

[tiamat63]

@the-gipper said:

Well....Baker DID hold the rookie record for most TDs in his rookie season,  until  Justin Herbert broke it this past season.   That was not a slanted or inaccurate statistic. 

That wasn't in the link or meme.  

So.......

[Tour2ma]

I'd prefer a comparison to a QB that won at least one SB...

[Tour2ma]

@tiamat63 said:

That wasn't in the link or meme.  

So.......

That should leave a mark!

But we all know it won't...

[calfoxwc]

@tiamat63 said:

Stats like that, meme's and quotes are....  I hesitate to say 'Inaccurate".  So I'll say slanted instead.   Either way they attempt to generate hype in a way that is rather misleading. Because instead of going off the first full 3 seasons played, they're going off the first 3 seasons in the NFL period.   This discounts multiple good QB's in the the last 12-13 years alone. 

so......Baker started week 3 of his rookie year, started all 16 games in 2019, started all 16 games in 2020...so.... it WAS his first three seasons played, he just didn't start the first two.... and still ranks up there with Marino ........isn't that even a bit MORE impressive?

[The Gipper]

@tiamat63 said:

That wasn't in the link or meme.  

So.......

So.....that is why I gave you more meaningful stats.   The rookie TD record and the one on the championships......because that is, after all, what really counts. 

Fair to say. 

[tiamat63]

@calfoxwc said:

so......Baker started week 3 of his rookie year, started all 16 games in 2019, started all 16 games in 2020...so.... it WAS his first three seasons played, he just didn't start the first two.... and still ranks up there with Marino ........isn't that even a bit MORE impressive?

Either you've misunderstood my post or I'm misunderstanding yours.   My point being is the slant of this particular stat line is exclusionary because it ONLY counts the first 3 seasons in the NFL, played or riding the pine ( example -Rodgers) 

If it was first 3 seasons played at the position, it would be a much longer list.  Baker has this distinction because he, much like many of rookies, were thrown in the fire very early.

If we want a more apt comparison, going off those first 48 games would produce a more honest stat line.

[tiamat63]

@the-gipper said:

So.....that is why I gave you more meaningful stats.   The rookie TD record and the one on the championships......because that is, after all, what really counts. 

Fair to say. 

Either of those things were and are irrelevant to this conversation and the stats applied.  This would be like me bringing up interception percentage and you going " yeah, but check out Bakers rushing yards".   Doesn't factor into this particular discussion.

[The Gipper]

@tiamat63 said:

Either of those things were and are irrelevant to this conversation and the stats applied.  This would be like me bringing up interception percentage and you going " yeah, but check out Bakers rushing yards".   Doesn't factor into this particular discussion.

The overall broad topic of discussion seems to me to be:   How well does a particular QB perform early in his career. 

 I think that having the record for most TD as a rookie, or winning  a championship in your first 3 years fairly well factors into that overall topic. 

i agree with you that the statistic cited,  "Dan Marino and Baker Mayfield are the only  2 QBs to do yada yada in their first 3 years" is one of those hyper inclusive  stats that are sometime cited that can be meaningless.    Kind of like saying  "Only  3 players in history ever did  stugotz:  Babe Ruth, Willie Mays, and Schmucky Schwartz.....the implication of which is that Schmucky Schwartz can somehow be equated to the other two (when he clearly cannot). 

Here is a stat that I hope that Baker and Marino do not end up together on:   Great QBs who never won a Championship. 

[The Gipper]

Nevertheless,   the question was asked...or it was pointed out that a better metric would be:   who did the best through their first  48 games.  Here is that stat,  See the link:

https://www.statmuse.com/nfl/ask/which-quarterback-has-the-most-passing-yards-in-their-first-48-games

Top Ten in Yards

Mahomes,   Warner,  Stafford,  Luck, Bulger, Marino, Watson, Winston, Cousins, Goff.....Baker is   15th. 

Top Ten in TDs:

Mahomes,  Warner,  Marino,  Watson, Luck,  Stafford, Palmer,  Wentz,  Carr,  Baker...10th

In some other categories for Baker:  

Comp. %    10th;     Completions   20th,   Attempts:  17th;    Yards per comp:   15th;  Yards per game  15th,   TD%  7th,   Rating   10th.

Of course, keep in mind the way the game has changed. All these guys who are tops in  TDs and yards in their first  48 games played in the 21st century primarily...except Marino.  Note that the likes of Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Joe Montana, Troy Aikman, Terry Bradshaw  and others didn't make these lists. 

[The Gipper]

Another interesting article on  QBs  in their first  48 games, for stat geeks. 

http://www.footballperspective.com/russell-wilson-and-other-quarterbacks-through-48-starts/

[Tour2ma]

@calfoxwc said:

isn't that even a bit MORE impressive?

Marino started only 9 games his rookie year... and appeared in only 2 others.

So.... no...

FYI.... the other 6 'Fins starts were divided between Woodley (5) and Don Strock (2).

[Tour2ma]

@tiamat63 said:

Doesn't factor into this particular discussion.

You say that as if it matters...

[Tour2ma]

@bob806 said:

I still say Kelly was over rated. Sugar huddle made him.

K-gun, baby...

Many have forgotten that Jim was a star for the Houston Gamblers in the USFL... shit league, but with some very good teams including Houston's.

The Gamblers employed the "Run n shoot" Offense. As much as any it was the forerunner to the "passing league" we enjoy(?) today.

[tiamat63]

@tour2ma said:

You say that as if it matters...

I'm at an inherent disadvantage in debates from my side - I have a fundamental need to make sense.

Although, to his credit, Gip seems to have acknowledged it and gone with more apt comparisons in the last few posts.

[calfoxwc]

@tour2ma said:

Marino started only 9 games his rookie year... and appeared in only 2 others.

So.... no...

FYI.... the other 6 'Fins starts were divided between Woodley (5) and Don Strock (2).

So, Marino started his career in 1983. Drafted by the Dolphins in April. In 1983 January, the Dolphins were in Superbowl XV!!. Baker started with a non-playoff team. With crap coaching. Marino had Don Shula.  Baker had...well...you know. Dan Marino went to a superbowl team with a great legendary coach.

So..................yes.?

                                                                                     

Miami Dolphins (2) (AFC) (7–2)	Washington Redskins (1) (NFC) (8–1)
17	27

[The Gipper]

@tiamat63 said:

I'm at an inherent disadvantage in debates from my side - I have a fundamental need to make sense.

Although, to his credit, Gip seems to have acknowledged it and gone with more apt comparisons in the last few posts.

What I acknowledge is that you seem to have wanted to  completely narrow the focus of the conversation to a single narrow statistic....that we both agree  was bogus....and didn't make sense.   I  acknowledge that I attempted to bring some sense into the discussion by providing a much wider scope/point of view to the subject of:   What QBs did really well in their early careers.  

Don't you think that topic requires a much wider lens? 

[Bob806]

@tour2ma said:

K-gun, baby...

Many have forgotten that Jim was a star for the Houston Gamblers in the USFL... shit league, but with some very good teams including Houston's.

The Gamblers employed the "Run n shoot" Offense. As much as any it was the forerunner to the "passing league" we enjoy(?) today.

I didn't forget lol. 

I also didn't forget Kelly throwing his team mates under the bus after Super Bowls. 

I'm not saying he stunk. I just don't agree that he was a 1st ballot HOFer.

[Tour2ma]

I don't remember "the bus" part, but...

Kelly was a big part of the Bills making it into 4 straight SuperBowls...

I'm not sure there's a more impressive run in league history.

When I think about how it had to have gotten exponentially harder to to get back up after each additional SB setback, it boggles my mind.

[SdBacker80]

@tour2ma said:

I don't remember "the bus" part, but...

Kelly was a big part of the Bills making it into 4 straight SuperBowls...

I'm not sure there's a more impressive run in league history.

When I think about how it had to have gotten exponentially harder to to get back up after each additional SB setback, it boggles my mind.

The Bills ran into buzz saws in my opinion Redskins and the Cowboys 93-94. Their best effort wasn’t pulling off those games.

And I’m Not even including The Giants in 91 who knocked off the 9ers in the NFC Championship game.  
 

If they would have come of age later say the Late 90s different story and I think their squad handles the Packers, Falcons in the late 90s. 

[gumby73]

PFF's 2021 NFL position rankings list is out... 

This link will take you to the Defensive Lines 1st... than with a easy click, towards the top of the link..All player positions will be ranked.. Top 32 teams or Players... (early)

 https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-ranking-all-32-nfl-defensive-line-units-entering-2021-season