PFF ranks Baker Mayfield tenth best QB heading into 2021

tiamat63

@calfoxwc said:

so......Baker started week 3 of his rookie year, started all 16 games in 2019, started all 16 games in 2020...so.... it WAS his first three seasons played, he just didn't start the first two.... and still ranks up there with Marino ........isn't that even a bit MORE impressive?

Either you've misunderstood my post or I'm misunderstanding yours. My point being is the slant of this particular stat line is exclusionary because it ONLY counts the first 3 seasons in the NFL, played or riding the pine ( example -Rodgers)

If it was first 3 seasons played at the position, it would be a much longer list. Baker has this distinction because he, much like many of rookies, were thrown in the fire very early.

If we want a more apt comparison, going off those first 48 games would produce a more honest stat line.

tiamat63

@the-gipper said:

So.....that is why I gave you more meaningful stats. The rookie TD record and the one on the championships......because that is, after all, what really counts.

Fair to say.

Either of those things were and are irrelevant to this conversation and the stats applied. This would be like me bringing up interception percentage and you going " yeah, but check out Bakers rushing yards". Doesn't factor into this particular discussion.

The Gipper

@tiamat63 said:

Either of those things were and are irrelevant to this conversation and the stats applied. This would be like me bringing up interception percentage and you going " yeah, but check out Bakers rushing yards". Doesn't factor into this particular discussion.

The overall broad topic of discussion seems to me to be: How well does a particular QB perform early in his career.

I think that having the record for most TD as a rookie, or winning a championship in your first 3 years fairly well factors into that overall topic.

i agree with you that the statistic cited, "Dan Marino and Baker Mayfield are the only 2 QBs to do yada yada in their first 3 years" is one of those hyper inclusive stats that are sometime cited that can be meaningless. Kind of like saying "Only 3 players in history ever did stugotz: Babe Ruth, Willie Mays, and Schmucky Schwartz.....the implication of which is that Schmucky Schwartz can somehow be equated to the other two (when he clearly cannot).

Here is a stat that I hope that Baker and Marino do not end up together on: Great QBs who never won a Championship.

The Gipper

Nevertheless, the question was asked...or it was pointed out that a better metric would be: who did the best through their first 48 games. Here is that stat, See the link:

https://www.statmuse.com/nfl/ask/which-quarterback-has-the-most-passing-yards-in-their-first-48-games

Top Ten in Yards

Mahomes, Warner, Stafford, Luck, Bulger, Marino, Watson, Winston, Cousins, Goff.....Baker is 15th.

Top Ten in TDs:

Mahomes, Warner, Marino, Watson, Luck, Stafford, Palmer, Wentz, Carr, Baker...10th

In some other categories for Baker:

Comp. % 10th; Completions 20th, Attempts: 17th; Yards per comp: 15th; Yards per game 15th, TD% 7th, Rating 10th.

Of course, keep in mind the way the game has changed. All these guys who are tops in TDs and yards in their first 48 games played in the 21st century primarily...except Marino. Note that the likes of Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Joe Montana, Troy Aikman, Terry Bradshaw and others didn't make these lists.

The Gipper

Another interesting article on QBs in their first 48 games, for stat geeks.

http://www.footballperspective.com/russell-wilson-and-other-quarterbacks-through-48-starts/

Tour2ma

@calfoxwc said:

isn't that even a bit MORE impressive?

Marino started only 9 games his rookie year... and appeared in only 2 others.

So.... no...

FYI.... the other 6 'Fins starts were divided between Woodley (5) and Don Strock (2).

Tour2ma

@tiamat63 said:

Doesn't factor into this particular discussion.

You say that as if it matters...

Tour2ma

@bob806 said:

I still say Kelly was over rated. Sugar huddle made him.

K-gun, baby...

Many have forgotten that Jim was a star for the Houston Gamblers in the USFL... shit league, but with some very good teams including Houston's.

The Gamblers employed the "Run n shoot" Offense. As much as any it was the forerunner to the "passing league" we enjoy(?) today.

tiamat63

@tour2ma said:

You say that as if it matters...

I'm at an inherent disadvantage in debates from my side - I have a fundamental need to make sense.

Although, to his credit, Gip seems to have acknowledged it and gone with more apt comparisons in the last few posts.

calfoxwc

@tour2ma said:

Marino started only 9 games his rookie year... and appeared in only 2 others.

So.... no...

FYI.... the other 6 'Fins starts were divided between Woodley (5) and Don Strock (2).

So, Marino started his career in 1983. Drafted by the Dolphins in April. In 1983 January, the Dolphins were in Superbowl XV!!. Baker started with a non-playoff team. With crap coaching. Marino had Don Shula. Baker had...well...you know. Dan Marino went to a superbowl team with a great legendary coach.

So..................yes.?

Miami Dolphins (2) (AFC) (7–2)	Washington Redskins (1) (NFC) (8–1)
17	27

The Gipper

@tiamat63 said:

I'm at an inherent disadvantage in debates from my side - I have a fundamental need to make sense.

Although, to his credit, Gip seems to have acknowledged it and gone with more apt comparisons in the last few posts.

What I acknowledge is that you seem to have wanted to completely narrow the focus of the conversation to a single narrow statistic....that we both agree was bogus....and didn't make sense. I acknowledge that I attempted to bring some sense into the discussion by providing a much wider scope/point of view to the subject of: What QBs did really well in their early careers.

Don't you think that topic requires a much wider lens?

Bob806

@tour2ma said:

K-gun, baby...

Many have forgotten that Jim was a star for the Houston Gamblers in the USFL... shit league, but with some very good teams including Houston's.

The Gamblers employed the "Run n shoot" Offense. As much as any it was the forerunner to the "passing league" we enjoy(?) today.

I didn't forget lol.

I also didn't forget Kelly throwing his team mates under the bus after Super Bowls.

I'm not saying he stunk. I just don't agree that he was a 1st ballot HOFer.

Tour2ma

I don't remember "the bus" part, but...

Kelly was a big part of the Bills making it into 4 straight SuperBowls...

I'm not sure there's a more impressive run in league history.

When I think about how it had to have gotten exponentially harder to to get back up after each additional SB setback, it boggles my mind.

SdBacker80

@tour2ma said:

I don't remember "the bus" part, but...

Kelly was a big part of the Bills making it into 4 straight SuperBowls...

I'm not sure there's a more impressive run in league history.

When I think about how it had to have gotten exponentially harder to to get back up after each additional SB setback, it boggles my mind.

The Bills ran into buzz saws in my opinion Redskins and the Cowboys 93-94. Their best effort wasn’t pulling off those games.

And I’m Not even including The Giants in 91 who knocked off the 9ers in the NFC Championship game.

If they would have come of age later say the Late 90s different story and I think their squad handles the Packers, Falcons in the late 90s.

gumby73

PFF's 2021 NFL position rankings list is out...

This link will take you to the Defensive Lines 1st... than with a easy click, towards the top of the link..All player positions will be ranked.. Top 32 teams or Players... (early)

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-ranking-all-32-nfl-defensive-line-units-entering-2021-season

gumby73

So we PFF rank as follows.... <<< Yes! I've ordered this lid...

QB = Baker Mayfield #10

RB = Nick Chubb #4 and Kareem Hunt #10

TE = Austin Hooper #17

OT = Jack Conklin #12

OG = Joel Bitonio #4 and Wyatt Teller #9

C = JC Tretter #4

DT = none

Edge = Myles Garrett #4 and J. Clowney #20

LB = none

Slot Corner = Troy Hill #5

Outside Corner = Denzel Ward #8

Safety = John Johnson #3 and Ronnie Harrison #30

Team Secondary Unit = #3

Team Interior Defense = #11

Team Offensive line = # 1

PFF Power Rankings = #8

Total Wins = 10.5

RB Unit = # 1

Receiving Unit = #13

Head Coaching = #7

Pff's Top 50 = #25-Myles Garrett #37-Nick Chubb #41-John Johnson III

calfoxwc

@tour2ma said:

Marino started only 9 games his rookie year... and appeared in only 2 others.

So.... no...

..

FYI.... the other 6 'Fins starts were divided between Woodley (5) and Don Strock (2).

(SO, given my response below, I did have a good point, yes?

So, Marino started his career in 1983. Drafted by the Dolphins in April. In 1983 January, the Dolphins were in Superbowl XV!!. Baker started with a non-playoff team. With crap coaching. Marino had Don Shula. Baker had...well...you know. Dan Marino went to a superbowl team with a great legendary coach.

So..................yes.?

Miami Dolphins (2) (AFC) (7–2)	Washington Redskins (1) (NFC) (8–1)
17	27

The Gipper

@calfoxwc said:

So, Marino started his career in 1983. Drafted by the Dolphins in April. In 1983 January, the Dolphins were in Superbowl XV!!. Baker started with a non-playoff team. With crap coaching. Marino had Don Shula. Baker had...well...you know. Dan Marino went to a superbowl team with a great legendary coach.

So..................yes.?

Miami Dolphins (2)
(AFC)
(7–2) Washington Redskins (1)
(NFC)
(8–1)
17 27

As you note, Marino's team went to the Super Bowl the season before they drafted him. Baker's team went 0-16 the year before they drafted him. Marino went to play for Don Shula, the winningest coach in NFL history. Baker went to play for Hue Jackson, who has he worst losing record in NFL history........save one guy who was a team owner who didn't want to fire himself.

Is that the disparity you are talking about?

Tour2ma

@calfoxwc said:

(SO, given my response below, I did have a good point, yes?

@calfoxwc said:

So, Marino started his career in 1983. Drafted by the Dolphins in April. In 1983 January, the Dolphins were in Superbowl XV!!.

Well...

Given that Marino was drafted in April, I doubt that he played in MIA's SB appearance 3 months earlier...

So there's that...

So... no...

calfoxwc

@tour2ma said:

Well...

Given that Marino was drafted in April, I doubt that he played in MIA's SB appearance 3 months earlier...

So there's that...

So... no...

oh, nice try. lol