Yuck to the TOP QB prospect!!!
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Ohio State REPLACED 9 defensive starters heading into his senior year while losing 5 juniors to the NFL draft T. I think you need to research this better. That was a big reason why Jim Rome was cautioning Buckeye fans that AJ Hawk wouldn't bet Packer teammate Charles Woodson. BOTH years, Troy had to overcome Michigan leads which doesn't really convey Troy's defense was bailing him out.
What would I research? Ohio State yielded just over 10 PPG that season, 2nd best in 1A. They were basically top 10 in every defensive category. They had an utterly dominant defense. Everyone following football that year knew it.
What would I research? Ohio State yielded just over 10 PPG that season, 2nd best in 1A. They were basically top 10 in every defensive category. They had an utterly dominant defense. Everyone following football that year knew it.
We could start by differentiating between Troy Smith's junior year and his senior year. Once you get that straight - I think you'll find Ohio State replaced 9 starters on defense when Troy was a senior. I also think you'll be unpleasantly surprised to see that 5 juniors went in the first 3 rounds of the NFL draft heading into Troy's senior year. We can pretend that made life easy as hell if you need us to; but I think Troy would have had ALOT more help if Santonio Holmes was available for the Florida matchup instead of being a 1st round draft pick STARTING for the Pittsburgh Steelers. Donte Whitner was also a 1st round draft pick for Buffalo, AJ Hawk was a first round draft pick for Green Bay. Youboty was a 3rd round pick for Buffalo and they had an olineman (Rob Murphy?) go to the NFL as a junior too. You blend that reality with losing 9 defensive starters and it's a pretty nice story that Troy Smith led them to a National Championship Game inspite of all the roster turnover.
Getting back to WHY I've brought up Troy Smith - I thought you didn't WANT to draft a QB in 2010 right?
So what's your enourmous worry about bringing in a free agent we don't have to overpay to compete with Quinn or DA for the starting job?
I gotta believe there's more than just Troy Smith as an idea. He's just the ONLY guy I see hinting around that he wants our situation as his ideal opportunity in his home town so he jumps to the top of my list of bargain shopping. Kevin Kolb is another idea I have but I think you'll find a bigger price tag attched to that one so we get back to worrying about what we lose if the dice comes up on the wrong number.
I think the fact that you present yourself as an enormous Notre Dame fan while I'm an Ohio State fan is gonna keep us from finding some common ground in this debate.
- Tom F.
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Tom, maybe I'm missing something, but for the life of me, I don't see it. I don't care if Ohio State somehow replaced 12 starters on
the defense was amazing. It may have been better than Smith's Junior season. I don't care if Notre Dame had 500 men on the field on defense, all Pro-Bowlers returned from the NFL: they were not amazing. If you think that having a good defense cannot do great things for a QB's growth in very short order, see guys like Rothlisberger, Rivers, and Flacco (and if you extend it to college, the list swells to become ridiculous).Was Smith a "nice story"? I suppose so. I don't see that it makes Smith a better quarterback than Brady Quinn.
I don't want Cleveland to draft a QB with an early pick. I don't mind if they pick up someone later in the draft or even if they try to go out and get a vet to take Quinn under his wing (Anderson will be gone). I don't see what bringing in Troy Smith would do though, even if he is cheap. I don't see him winning the starting job and I don't see him helping our other QB(s) in any way.
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Hey, did you just add that line about my being an ND fan? I didn't see it before. I don't see a reason why what college team we like should have any impact on this debate. One guy had an incredible season despite the players around him. One guy had an incredible season because of the players around him. That's how I see it. That's how scouts saw it. That's how teams drafted.
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Hey, did you just add that line about my being an ND fan? I didn't see it before. I don't see a reason why what college team we like should have any impact on this debate. One guy had an incredible season despite the players around him. One guy had an incredible season because of the players around him. That's how I see it. That's how scouts saw it. That's how teams drafted.
Hey, did you just add that line about my being an ND fan? I didn't see it before. I don't see a reason why what college team we like should have any impact on this debate. One guy had an incredible season despite the players around him. One guy had an incredible season because of the players around him. That's how I see it. That's how scouts saw it. That's how teams drafted.
At the risk of interjecting another dog into this fight, I'd offer to you that being a fan of ND or Ohio State is entirely relevant in the discussion. I personally don't trust myself to give an opinion about Texas players because I worry that I don't see them objectively. I try to stay out of discussions regarding the pro prospects of the Horns as I tend to be more critical of them than others might be. The reaction to positive or negative criticism of a favorite college team (especially if you're an alum) is a very visceral one and I can't expect the fact to be irrelevant.
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I don't see any way we get Kolb from Philly...He's their next starter. I think they would give up McNabb before they give up Kolb at this point.
I don't see any way we get Kolb from Philly...He's their next starter. I think they would give up McNabb before they give up Kolb at this point.
Mark,
I was thinking the same way until yesterday. Kolb's prolly seriously wondering why they asked Michael Vick to come in during the 1st quarter yesterday to throw a rope for a 67 yard TD pass instead of asking him to do that. I don't think they're investing this time in Michael Vick just to trade him based on McNabb's age and wear and tear coupled with his recent playoff disappointments. If Kolb senses they are grooming Vick to replace McNabb, guess who wants out? They can tell Kolb he's their guy of the future all they want but their actions are really showing Vick is this person.
- Tom F.
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I think that play really only worked because they were afraid of Vick running the ball. It was a pass out of a WildDawg...something we should do more of with Cribbs because it would make the running game with him even more effective.
I still think Philly looks at Kolb as the future starter and Vick as nothing more than Pat White in Miami or that dude from the Jets last night.
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Vick is the future of the St. Louis Rams.
It's going to happen.
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I watched Brees in college, primarily when he played against OSU. He was insanely accurate and made me wonder why nobody thought he could play in the pros. He is probably a couple of inches taller than troy
Troy was a great athlete that became a good QB as time went on. He made some incredible plays but didn't impress me as insanely accurate like brees. I don't think troy did really well in his workouts before the draft which hurt him. But I do think troy can play in the nfl, he is still here
I don't think it was a looks or skin issue but just imho
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Hey, did you just add that line about my being an ND fan? I didn't see it before. I don't see a reason why what college team we like should have any impact on this debate. One guy had an incredible season despite the players around him. One guy had an incredible season because of the players around him. That's how I see it. That's how scouts saw it. That's how teams drafted.
At the risk of interjecting another dog into this fight, I'd offer to you that being a fan of ND or Ohio State is entirely relevant in the discussion. I personally don't trust myself to give an opinion about Texas players because I worry that I don't see them objectively. I try to stay out of discussions regarding the pro prospects of the Horns as I tend to be more critical of them than others might be. The reaction to positive or negative criticism of a favorite college team (especially if you're an alum) is a very visceral one and I can't expect the fact to be irrelevant.
At the risk of interjecting another dog into this fight, I'd offer to you that being a fan of ND or Ohio State is entirely relevant in the discussion. I personally don't trust myself to give an opinion about Texas players because I worry that I don't see them objectively. I try to stay out of discussions regarding the pro prospects of the Horns as I tend to be more critical of them than others might be. The reaction to positive or negative criticism of a favorite college team (especially if you're an alum) is a very visceral one and I can't expect the fact to be irrelevant.
LOL! I hear ya Earl. That's why I brought up the differences in what college teams we followed because it's like we're 2 different religions arguing which messiah leads us to the promise land - mine or his. We are both patriotic to our favorite guy from our favorite program in this debate. I think T has been very respectful throughout this so I don't see it as a fight (Battle of Troy) as much as us both trying to clarify where we are coming from.
Trodgers,
FWIW - I wanted Quinn to have a great year in 09 so I could feel like we were finally set at QB. That never went the way I wanted it to. I think I'm pretty much where you are at with not wanting to draft a QB in round 1 but feeling like we need to bring in someone to compete for the job. We can either go the route of a later round or see what we can get to come in from another team.
- Tom F.
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I watched Brees in college, primarily when he played against OSU. He was insanely accurate and made me wonder why nobody thought he could play in the pros. He is probably a couple of inches taller than troy
Troy was a great athlete that became a good QB as time went on. He made some incredible plays but didn't impress me as insanely accurate like brees. I don't think troy did really well in his workouts before the draft which hurt him. But I do think troy can play in the nfl, he is still here
I don't think it was a looks or skin issue but just imho
I watched Brees in college, primarily when he played against OSU. He was insanely accurate and made me wonder why nobody thought he could play in the pros. He is probably a couple of inches taller than troy
Troy was a great athlete that became a good QB as time went on. He made some incredible plays but didn't impress me as insanely accurate like brees. I don't think troy did really well in his workouts before the draft which hurt him. But I do think troy can play in the nfl, he is still here
I don't think it was a looks or skin issue but just imho
They're both listed at 6'0, but Troy does seem smaller than what he is listed. Troy's big appeal is his mobility, whereas Brees is more of a true pocket QB. Don't get me wrong, Brees is mobile enough, but it seems like Troy throws better balls on the run than Brees.
The thing I look at in QB's more than their mechanics is how they cope when things go to shit. I like a QB with good mechanics, who doesn't, but I think a desirable quality in QB's nowadays is their ability to turn a busted play into positive yardage. Many things factor into that, things like mobility, their ability to throw on the run, their field awareness, and their ability to take a hit. I think the NFL is slowly transitioning away from true pocket QB's like Manning, Warner, Favre and Brady. Don't get me wrong, they are still elite QB's, and they always will be. But with the way defenses are evolving and the true freaks of nature being drafted on the defensive side of the ball, it's getting hard for a QB to come in, read a defense correctly pre-snap, then drop back and have a comfortable amount of time to throw. Defenses seem to be harder to read, at least from my point of view.
Essentially, I'm looking for Roethlisberger. He is probably one of the greatest QB's in the history of the NFL when it comes to improvising and turning busted plays into big gains. I think Troy Smith has Roethlisberger-esque qualities. He was born to throw the football on the run. His accuracy could definitely be improved, but it's not altogether terrible. In fact, it's probably better than what we have now in Cleveland. People seem to forget that Troy Smith was in line to become the starter for Baltimore until he got tonsilitis. Then Flacco decided that he wanted to be amazing, and now Troy Smith is just out of luck.
All in all, I'd love to see what he could do for us. I think it would be a welcome addition.
The real question is: is Cleveland ready for a black quarterback? (That's a joke)
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Is Cleveland ready for a black quarterback is a very good question. Since we've been back the only black quarterback has been speurgon wynn lol. Everytime a black qb is mentioned all you hear about is their defeciencies. Mike Vick was a good qb juss ask defensive coordinators around the league. Matter of fact the same people saying that he was no good should look at what we had this year behind center.If we are building a dominant run game we should get a running qb that can throw. (Mike Vick, Troy Smith, Mcnabb, Dixon, Young). Please no more comments about Vick and dogs thats the past he did his time and its time to move on from that.
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Things like that never go away man, the media will be sure to mention it a time or 2, if Vick comes to Cleveland.
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Kolb makes too much sense to dismiss it. His GM will be here so he's got a guy on the inside who not only makes the contracts, he also has a very strong say on personel. If he can get in Mangini's ear, Kolb is here, starting. I wanted him at trade deadline last year.
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Is Cleveland ready for a black quarterback is a very good question. Since we've been back the only black quarterback has been speurgon wynn lol. Everytime a black qb is mentioned all you hear about is their defeciencies. Mike Vick was a good qb juss ask defensive coordinators around the league. Matter of fact the same people saying that he was no good should look at what we had this year behind center.If we are building a dominant run game we should get a running qb that can throw. (Mike Vick, Troy Smith, Mcnabb, Dixon, Young). Please no more comments about Vick and dogs thats the past he did his time and its time to move on from that.
Is Cleveland ready for a black quarterback is a very good question. Since we've been back the only black quarterback has been speurgon wynn lol. Everytime a black qb is mentioned all you hear about is their defeciencies. Mike Vick was a good qb juss ask defensive coordinators around the league. Matter of fact the same people saying that he was no good should look at what we had this year behind center.If we are building a dominant run game we should get a running qb that can throw. (Mike Vick, Troy Smith, Mcnabb, Dixon, Young). Please no more comments about Vick and dogs thats the past he did his time and its time to move on from that.
I don't want a running quarterback who can throw. I want a throwing quarterback who can run.
I'm awesome, and I fuck dolphins. Ghoolie 12/2/2012: I have absolutely no skills, training or pride -
I think that play really only worked because they were afraid of Vick running the ball. It was a pass out of a WildDawg...something we should do more of with Cribbs because it would make the running game with him even more effective.
I still think Philly looks at Kolb as the future starter and Vick as nothing more than Pat White in Miami or that dude from the Jets last night.
I think that play really only worked because they were afraid of Vick running the ball. It was a pass out of a WildDawg...something we should do more of with Cribbs because it would make the running game with him even more effective.
I still think Philly looks at Kolb as the future starter and Vick as nothing more than Pat White in Miami or that dude from the Jets last night.
I think you just brought up the rationale of why Philly is more confortable with Vick's assets. The difference between Vick and Pat White was Vick was a #1 overall pick due to some surprising arm strength coinciding with his 4.2 speed. Pat White was seen as more of a long term project where he'll have to work to strengthen his arm. He DID lead his team to an NFC Championship Game regardless of how people liked the way he played QB.
I think SOME thought he'd become a poor man's Steve Young on draft day based on the wheels/elusiveness and seeing the accuracy improve when the speed of the game slowed. Let's not forget Steve Young playing QB with track shoes in Tampa wasn't anything like the 28 year old star emerging when he had Rice, Taylor, TO, Brent Jones, Rathman and Garner/Hearst as his targets. That didn't happen overnight and maybe a WCO Coach like Andy Reid feels this can be the same change Vick needs to better his accuracy and consistency his critics hold so dearly.
I don't think they would invest the time they are with him right now if they wanted to make Kolb their guy. I can't imagine he's excited when Vick inhibits his reps, growth and experience. I've got a weird vibe one of their QBs gets sent packing and I'm not so sure it's Vick. I've certainly been wrong before when it comes to QBs.
- Tom F.
I welcome the only Defensive Coordinator to earn a Superbowl Ring in New Orleans while understanding Revenge of the Nerds is a sequel. "Come get some!" -
Is Cleveland ready for a black quarterback is a very good question. Since we've been back the only black quarterback has been speurgon wynn lol. Everytime a black qb is mentioned all you hear about is their defeciencies. Mike Vick was a good qb juss ask defensive coordinators around the league. Matter of fact the same people saying that he was no good should look at what we had this year behind center.If we are building a dominant run game we should get a running qb that can throw. (Mike Vick, Troy Smith, Mcnabb, Dixon, Young). Please no more comments about Vick and dogs thats the past he did his time and its time to move on from that.
I don't want a running quarterback who can throw. I want a throwing quarterback who can run.
I don't want a running quarterback who can throw. I want a throwing quarterback who can run.
Good point Couch!
- Tom F.
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Hey, did you just add that line about my being an ND fan? I didn't see it before. I don't see a reason why what college team we like should have any impact on this debate. One guy had an incredible season despite the players around him. One guy had an incredible season because of the players around him. That's how I see it. That's how scouts saw it. That's how teams drafted.
Hey, did you just add that line about my being an ND fan? I didn't see it before. I don't see a reason why what college team we like should have any impact on this debate. One guy had an incredible season despite the players around him. One guy had an incredible season because of the players around him. That's how I see it. That's how scouts saw it. That's how teams drafted.
While you are not reasearching Smith's surroundings, you might as well continue not researching Quinn's surroundings either... all but a couple players on his offense either were drafted, got into NFL camps for a serious look, or spurned the NFL (baseball, ministry), some of them were starting before he got a start. He wasn't alone.
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I think that play really only worked because they were afraid of Vick running the ball. It was a pass out of a WildDawg...something we should do more of with Cribbs because it would make the running game with him even more effective.
I still think Philly looks at Kolb as the future starter and Vick as nothing more than Pat White in Miami or that dude from the Jets last night.
I think you just brought up the rationale of why Philly is more confortable with Vick's assets. The difference between Vick and Pat White was Vick was a #1 overall pick due to some surprising arm strength coinciding with his 4.2 speed. Pat White was seen as more of a long term project where he'll have to work to strengthen his arm. He DID lead his team to an NFC Championship Game regardless of how people liked the way he played QB.
I think SOME thought he'd become a poor man's Steve Young on draft day based on the wheels/elusiveness and seeing the accuracy improve when the speed of the game slowed. Let's not forget Steve Young playing QB with track shoes in Tampa wasn't anything like the 28 year old star emerging when he had Rice, Taylor, TO, Brent Jones, Rathman and Garner/Hearst as his targets. That didn't happen overnight and maybe a WCO Coach like Andy Reid feels this can be the same change Vick needs to better his accuracy and consistency his critics hold so dearly.
I don't think they would invest the time they are with him right now if they wanted to make Kolb their guy. I can't imagine he's excited when Vick inhibits his reps, growth and experience. I've got a weird vibe one of their QBs gets sent packing and I'm not so sure it's Vick. I've certainly been wrong before when it comes to QBs.
- Tom F.
I think you just brought up the rationale of why Philly is more confortable with Vick's assets. The difference between Vick and Pat White was Vick was a #1 overall pick due to some surprising arm strength coinciding with his 4.2 speed. Pat White was seen as more of a long term project where he'll have to work to strengthen his arm. He DID lead his team to an NFC Championship Game regardless of how people liked the way he played QB.
I think SOME thought he'd become a poor man's Steve Young on draft day based on the wheels/elusiveness and seeing the accuracy improve when the speed of the game slowed. Let's not forget Steve Young playing QB with track shoes in Tampa wasn't anything like the 28 year old star emerging when he had Rice, Taylor, TO, Brent Jones, Rathman and Garner/Hearst as his targets. That didn't happen overnight and maybe a WCO Coach like Andy Reid feels this can be the same change Vick needs to better his accuracy and consistency his critics hold so dearly.
I don't think they would invest the time they are with him right now if they wanted to make Kolb their guy. I can't imagine he's excited when Vick inhibits his reps, growth and experience. I've got a weird vibe one of their QBs gets sent packing and I'm not so sure it's Vick. I've certainly been wrong before when it comes to QBs.
- Tom F.
I think one of them is ending up in St. Louis. I really believe it will be Vick, I don't know why. All the signs point to no, but I just feel like Vick could start over in St. Louis. The offensive line in St. Louis is bad, and it's going to take at least another season for it to get any better. They've got some decent rookies, with Jason Smith, Phil Trautwein and Roger Allen. John Greco from Youngstown is young as well, but I don't know how long he'll start. Eric Young is still very young as well. Basically, they've got a handful of youngins, and no real experience. Alex Barron is unquestionably the most talented vet on that line, and that's not saying too much. I think a quarterback of Vick's caliber could go a long way to improving their record for the next couple of seasons. He's not really a stop-gap, because he still has some years on him. But he's also not a long-term QB, either. They could pick up Vick and groom another QB behind him. Maybe a Ryan Mallet or Greg McElroy in next year's draft. I think he would come pretty cheap, too.
That's just what I believe.
I'm awesome, and I fuck dolphins. Ghoolie 12/2/2012: I have absolutely no skills, training or pride -
Al Davis will want Mike Vick in the end. All the raiders actually need is a QB right now, they also might need some lineman but they have a good D and a young and up and coming Offense. Vick would be a savior in the eyes of Al Davis.
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