Jeff Davidson
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We'll rich ... if I had steve smith, musin muhamed, jonathan Stewart, and deangelo williams with 3 1st rounders on the line with the center from USC kalil who by all counts was supposed to be a 1st rounder and a 3rd rounder on the O-line....I could QB that team!
That's precisely the Brown's problem. They have not drafted well or got the right pieces in FA.
That's precisely the Brown's problem. They have not drafted well or got the right pieces in FA.
Glad there a few Browns fans who get...............your post is a great relief...........among those who think things are swimmingly well
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I'll give you props on warning us of a bad year....you did say we had an awful easy schedule last year and had a bunch of second team Qb's playin us....nice call rich. as to dime o dozen theory....watever(dead horse)...we will draft skill players this year, i.e. RB,LB corner and possibly wr.
I swear if we don't go LB in first I'll scream for savages head with you!!! REY 09'
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I'll give you props on warning us of a bad year....you did say we had an awful easy schedule last year and had a bunch of second team Qb's playin us....nice call rich. as to dime o dozen theory....watever(dead horse)...we will draft skill players this year, i.e. RB,LB corner and possibly wr.
I swear if we don't go LB in first I'll scream for savages head with you!!! REY 09'
I'll give you props on warning us of a bad year....you did say we had an awful easy schedule last year and had a bunch of second team Qb's playin us....nice call rich. as to dime o dozen theory....watever(dead horse)...we will draft skill players this year, i.e. RB,LB corner and possibly wr.
I swear if we don't go LB in first I'll scream for savages head with you!!! REY 09'
Thanks...........and indeed an impact LB is what I call a disruptive player so yes indeed they can and should be considered for top picks.......we need guys who touch the ball and some depth there........
lets hope Sewage is gone when draft day comes
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So we both want the same thing.......except you are voting to keep a moron and I do indeed want to move on and keep moving on until we get it right
SEWAGE stinks big .........oh uyeahs
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dats right da ich be getting it.......big time and correctamundo..........sewage is coffee fetcher and some have amnesia.........tell me again who has football acumen..........thomas be fat slug what is peterson doin
da ich, da ich, da ich is on fire!!!
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Jeff Davidson was shafted here, yes, I'll admit it.
When he took over the offense it got WORSE.
Grant it he stuck with Carthon's O schemes because he felt he couldn't change mid season and the players make adjustments.
Maybe Romeo felt he liked Carton's O and made Davis stick with it.
Who knows.
This whole team is f$$ked up from front office down to the janitorial staff at Berea that is supposed to be cleaning up the place so the players don't get staph.
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Rich,
Can you put up the salary numbers for both Carolina's O-line and Cleveland's O-line?
Are you saying we are spending a 100 Million and they are spending only 10's of Millions (or less?)?
I'm interested in seeing your point, thanks.
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Rich,
Can you put up the salary numbers for both Carolina's O-line and Cleveland's O-line?
Are you saying we are spending a 100 Million and they are spending only 10's of Millions (or less?)?
I'm interested in seeing your point, thanks.
Rich,
Can you put up the salary numbers for both Carolina's O-line and Cleveland's O-line?
Are you saying we are spending a 100 Million and they are spending only 10's of Millions (or less?)?
I'm interested in seeing your point, thanks.
I think this is total cap numbers, but:
Panthers:
LT-Jordan Gross $7,459,920
LG-Travelle Wharton $12,850,000
C-Ryan Kalil $799,880
RG-Keydrick Vincent $1,130,000
RT-Jeff Otah $2,253,750
Total: $23,773,550
http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/team/carolina-panthers/salary
Browns:
LT-Joe Thomas $8,800,000
LG-Eric Steinbach $7,600,000
C-Hank Fraley $1,650,000
RG-Rex Hadnot $3,950,000
RT-Kevin Shaffer $3,350,000
Total: $25,350,000
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Rich,
Can you put up the salary numbers for both Carolina's O-line and Cleveland's O-line?
Are you saying we are spending a 100 Million and they are spending only 10's of Millions (or less?)?
I'm interested in seeing your point, thanks.
Rich,
Can you put up the salary numbers for both Carolina's O-line and Cleveland's O-line?
Are you saying we are spending a 100 Million and they are spending only 10's of Millions (or less?)?
I'm interested in seeing your point, thanks.
For what its worth:
Super Bowl Champion NY Giants:
LT- David Diehl $4,100,000
LG- Chris Snee $14,890,000
C-Shaun O'Hara $1,900,000
RG-Rich Seubert $4,350,000
RT-Kareem McKenzie $3,750,000
Total: $28,990,000
http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/team/new-york-giants/salary
A quick check of many teams the only one who seems to be under $10,000,000 is the Patriots..don't hold me to that though...but they're close...
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Good work Titlest
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Rich,
Can you put up the salary numbers for both Carolina's O-line and Cleveland's O-line?
Are you saying we are spending a 100 Million and they are spending only 10's of Millions (or less?)?
I'm interested in seeing your point, thanks.
I think this is total cap numbers, but:
Panthers:
LT-Jordan Gross $7,459,920
LG-Travelle Wharton $12,850,000
C-Ryan Kalil $799,880
RG-Keydrick Vincent $1,130,000
RT-Jeff Otah $2,253,750
Total: $23,773,550
http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/team/carolina-panthers/salary
Browns:
LT-Joe Thomas $8,800,000
LG-Eric Steinbach $7,600,000
C-Hank Fraley $1,650,000
RG-Rex Hadnot $3,950,000
RT-Kevin Shaffer $3,350,000
Total: $25,350,000
I think this is total cap numbers, but:
Panthers:
LT-Jordan Gross $7,459,920
LG-Travelle Wharton $12,850,000
C-Ryan Kalil $799,880
RG-Keydrick Vincent $1,130,000
RT-Jeff Otah $2,253,750
Total: $23,773,550
http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/team/carolina-panthers/salary
Browns:
LT-Joe Thomas $8,800,000
LG-Eric Steinbach $7,600,000
C-Hank Fraley $1,650,000
RG-Rex Hadnot $3,950,000
RT-Kevin Shaffer $3,350,000
Total: $25,350,000
Shocking. Da Ich is 100% incorrectomondo.
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I think this is total cap numbers, but:
Panthers:
LT-Jordan Gross $7,459,920
LG-Travelle Wharton $12,850,000
C-Ryan Kalil $799,880
RG-Keydrick Vincent $1,130,000
RT-Jeff Otah $2,253,750
Total: $23,773,550
http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/team/carolina-panthers/salary
Browns:
LT-Joe Thomas $8,800,000
LG-Eric Steinbach $7,600,000
C-Hank Fraley $1,650,000
RG-Rex Hadnot $3,950,000
RT-Kevin Shaffer $3,350,000
Total: $25,350,000
Shocking. Da Ich is 100% incorrectomondo.
Masters said:
Shocking. Da Ich is 100% incorrectomondo.I look forward to his spin on this one..
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Masters said:
Shocking. Da Ich is 100% incorrectomondo.I look forward to his spin on this one..
I look forward to his spin on this one..
He won't spin it. He will avoid it and come back complaining about accepting losing, Savage, getting it big time, playmakers, etc.
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I look forward to his spin on this one..
He won't spin it. He will avoid it and come back complaining about accepting losing, Savage, getting it big time, playmakers, etc.
Masters said:
He won't spin it. He will avoid it and come back complaining about accepting losing, Savage, getting it big time, playmakers, etc.I have no idea what you guys are talking about.
It's almost like you guys know this dude or something.
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dis be typical........da herd telling doze of us that get it.........often and regular or sumtin.........keep tryin and remember 36 years ago da Browns be good.
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Are we talking about the same CAR that has a 1st round pick at LT and RT, along with a 2nd and 3rd at C and G?
I'll give Davidson all the credit in the world for finally using DeAngelo after he was wasted for two years behind an aging Foster.
But as usual, your dime a dozen argument is washed up, since the team you used doesnt' have dime a dozen guys on it. Not to mention CAR has been one of the strogest running teams long before Davidson got there. Their O was also potent long before he got there.
Masters said:
Are we talking about the same CAR that has a 1st round pick at LT and RT, along with a 2nd and 3rd at C and G?I'll give Davidson all the credit in the world for finally using DeAngelo after he was wasted for two years behind an aging Foster.
Masters before I voice my difference of opinion - I want to say I ENJOY reading anything you post. You need to post MORE because sometimes you DO change my stubborn football world is caving in tunnelvision. Some of my tones on this are NOT directed at you personally as much as the overall back to all we need is to fire 1 guy mentality that has us setting up the next Scapegoat if we continue to suck in the front office. WHO is going to be doing the hiring THIS time and knowing what the best 2 choices are in terms of HCing experience? Are we going to accept we didn't get our 1st our 2nd choice again the way we did with Palmer when we chased Palmer out of town assuming he was the ONLY problem? Not 1 person held Policy the LEAST bit accountable for the 5-27 start. And they NEVER held him acountable for bringing in the most HATED person in franchise history Butch Davis. Davis allegedly hired himself just like RAC just did right?
Just a couple points about Williams. Is he getting better or worse with experience? Our first round pick was Kam Wimbley. His best season was his rookie year but a look at his college career showed me 1 season of fulltime startage while Broadlike Bunkley our other rumored favorite in that draft had similar limitations. Don't they always say your better GMs draft kids with more upside? The guy in Carolina did a nice job with that. Meanwhile, the # of scoring weapons to choose between Steve Smith, Jon Stewart, DeAngelo Williams, Muhsin Muhamad really make Otah, Gross, Kalil and Wharton's efforts noticable. I see 4 oline guys they DRAFTED worth keeping while we've had 1 at the tough challenge of the 3rd overall pick. GREAT job Phil! We're on pace to have all 5 olinemen worth keeping from the draft for the year 2020. If Joe Thomas is the next Jackie Slater - we're all set! We're still overdependent on free agency because we've got more holes than a golf course.
One of the biggest reasons Williams wasn't AS effective before this year was he was playing through injuries which limited success and an ability to shift gears the way he does this year. I had him on my fantasy football roster so I remember all the times it said questionable and why it was. He's a pro so he sucked it up and played. That said, shall we see what he averaged per carry prior to this year? Here ya go - any complaints about 4.1 yards a carry as a rookie or 5 yards a carry as a soph?:
Season Team G Rush Yds Y/G Avg TD
2006 Carolina 13 121 501 38.5 4.1 1
2007 Carolina 16 144 717 44.8 5.0 4
2008 Carolina 14 224 1229 87.8 5.5 14
And another reason NOBODY looked good at RB in 2007 was Carolina went with their version of Ken Dorsey and I think they even called the 45 year old Testaverde off the coach. This had 11 defenders cramming the box to stop running game and hook zones while DEs had walkoff duty in the flats. Steve Smith fell off the earth not because he stunk but because they didn't have the arm to deem him inclusive.
Savage did indeed fire Davidson so I'm am rather amused how we continue to play leapfrog the GM in lieu of just blame your favorite scapegoat. In 2007, we gave Chud ALL the praise for innovative offense and scoring TDs. In 2008, it suddenly became our Head Coach called all the plays while Chud had nothing to do with it. Just a question? The guy Chud worked under in SD was OC Ken Cameron so did Cameron just get more intelligent when he lived in Baltimore and San Diego than he was when he lived in Miami? Things like WHO is playing QB, who is fetching passes, who is healthy at RB, and what draft picks up front are paving the way for success matter. Our offense wouldn't NEED handcuffing if we weren't throwing more INTs for TDs vrs Baltimore than TDs to teamates (ie; 2007). I don't see all these wonderful scoring weapons and ideal olinemen (aside from our left side) everyone else does. Harrison is currently working through an injury which was allegedly the concern about his durability to receive more reps. Therefore, it's not convenient to comsider that or the fact that Savage got Lerner to open his wallet to deem Jamal lewis 2008 workhorse. Winslow is just as worn and torn as Lewis folks so why play leafrog with the unicorn when we can just blame the next Head Coach? I'd LOVE to have the ability to archive what everyone thought of the BB/Parcells school of 3 yards and a cloud of dust when we had them here. We thought Keenan Mccardle's BIGGEST asset was his blocking so we used Stonehands Jackson to fetch passes instead. I seen it. People didn't think any more of Davidson than they did of Carthon. TRUST me - I read it over and over and over.
In conclusion, if you're not here to say that EVERY single problem with this team is 100% the Head Coach's fault - you're not gonna be popular. I DO agree RAC defintely needs to go; BUT have we hired the right coach YET? Why are we here again? I'm at least willing to admit Phil hasn't made us any LESS overdependent on free agency volume 5 offseasons into his plan that promised better drafting and more continuity. When a former employee is paid by the NFL channel to report on his opinion of the problems in Cleveland I find it interesting he says the biggest problem the entire time he was there was front offense chaos. Doesn't the fact that we even HAD Dilfer as our 1st plan with Charlie on deck somewhat confirm that? Others that departed for other franchises have said the same thing. Why was there already a problem with Savage and Collins? Let me guess, RAC was playing Conrad Dobler behind the scenes asking one did you here what Phil was saying about you? Had to be...
- Tom F. (I started to get the hint as we stayed stuck on pause with Northcutt and one seeing the need to secure Andra Davis' future with us as priorities. The biggest red flag was jamming your head coach with here's your guy Trent Dilfer with Charlie Frye on deck "go get em Tiger!" Not impressed yet! )
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Good post, Tom. Savage isn't off my radar, it's just that I do see RAC as the biggest problem this season. While he might a be a good COACH, he isn't a good HEAD COACH, and I think we all agree he is a poor gameday coach.
When the team is playing this badly, and guys ARE quitting, it's time to play the other guys, even if they are 'less talented' and 'don't practice well'. At this late stage (actually about 5 games ago), winning games doesn't matter. The goal is playoffs and super bowl. If you aren't in the mix, then it's time to address the attitude of the team for the sake of next season.
In some places, the players police themselves; CLE hasn't been one of them since reentering the league. It's up to the coach to do it, and to send a message to guys that don't perform.
Savage has too big a role, IMO, and it shows. I don't think his drafts have been all that great (I belive most of our starters wouldn't start for 1/2 of the teams in the league). The only problem is it is hard to say if the coaching is to blame. We've seen Wimbley regress after a great rookie season. The guys has the talent, it would appear, but I don't know if he is being taught well.
Depending on who ends up at HC, Savage will be under a microscope this year. If a guy like Marty or Cowher, or someone who is known to get the best out of his players and can really coach them comes in, we'll see if Phil is as good as he thinks he is.
Only thing that might skew the resuls are that we'll be facing what should be a weak schedule. How the team performs against BAL, PIT, and any other good teams will be of interest.
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Good post, Tom. Savage isn't off my radar, it's just that I do see RAC as the biggest problem this season. While he might a be a good COACH, he isn't a good HEAD COACH, and I think we all agree he is a poor gameday coach.
When the team is playing this badly, and guys ARE quitting, it's time to play the other guys, even if they are 'less talented' and 'don't practice well'. At this late stage (actually about 5 games ago), winning games doesn't matter. The goal is playoffs and super bowl. If you aren't in the mix, then it's time to address the attitude of the team for the sake of next season.
In some places, the players police themselves; CLE hasn't been one of them since reentering the league. It's up to the coach to do it, and to send a message to guys that don't perform.
Savage has too big a role, IMO, and it shows. I don't think his drafts have been all that great (I belive most of our starters wouldn't start for 1/2 of the teams in the league). The only problem is it is hard to say if the coaching is to blame. We've seen Wimbley regress after a great rookie season. The guys has the talent, it would appear, but I don't know if he is being taught well.
Depending on who ends up at HC, Savage will be under a microscope this year. If a guy like Marty or Cowher, or someone who is known to get the best out of his players and can really coach them comes in, we'll see if Phil is as good as he thinks he is.
Only thing that might skew the resuls are that we'll be facing what should be a weak schedule. How the team performs against BAL, PIT, and any other good teams will be of interest.
Good post, Tom. Savage isn't off my radar, it's just that I do see RAC as the biggest problem this season. While he might a be a good COACH, he isn't a good HEAD COACH, and I think we all agree he is a poor gameday coach.
When the team is playing this badly, and guys ARE quitting,
Thanks Lem! Let's examine that last phrase above for a second. What would you do if you went and saw your favorite band playing in concert and the lead singer quit in the first quarter of that show? Would you leapfrog the singer to blame the band's pee-on manager? Who's got the POWER there - the box office draw or the nobody that arranged the show for the band?
IMO, if our GM doesn't know that winners never quit and quitters never win he's in the wrong business so the business he runs HAS to suck. The GOAL of every team is post season so HOW has Savage done? We got ZERO from the following millionaires Savage held us hostage with as ENORMOUS commitments to 2008:
1) Jamal Lewis
2) Andra Davis
3) Donte Stallworth
4) Dumb Ass (how did that contract change set us up for Quinn in week 1?)
5) Corey Williams
6) AWOL Tucker (count back to the last time we didn't lose him for at least 4 weeks. Shame on us this time!)
7) Kevin Shaffer (paid to start as a blind side tackle - had the clutch whiff on Mathis for game losing score)
Hank Fraley (Philly demoted him 3 years ago BUT he was the least 11 evils replacing Bentley so by all means keep him another 12 seasons since we can't DRAFT anyone better)I'm too tired to bring up all the glugs Savage brought here as overpaid commitments post-prime. Not to mention how many high priced free agents got injured.
What WR can we look to when Edwards drops every pass? Travis Wilson? Stubbedtoes? Who's we draft? We're 3 TEs deep today so when Dinkins Donuts isn't focusing on football when the ball bounes off his hands - WHO's more interested - the inexperienced guy coming off knee surgery WITHOUT the staff infection? Yay! This is DEEPER than the Head Coach, which still doesn't excuse RAC from sucking. Never said it did. I'm just right back where I was in 2000 asking if we're remving the entire disease or just 50% of it. Actually, it's 33% owner, 33% Personnel Director/GM, 33% Head Coach, 1% towel boy with the toe cheese spreading the staph infections.
My question is WHAT human in the right mind sees Cleveland as a GREAT opportunity WITHOUT removing Phil Savage above him? I've got a sick pit in my stomach we're not getting Marty or Cowher. And don't think Marty and Cowher didn't have conflicts with GMs they felt weren't up to snuff. "Hey I just sent Drew Brees packing" wasn't about to improve Marty's relationship with the goofball thinking Norv Turner is just what the doctor ordered in SD. Donahoe got his walking papers in Pittsburgh while Marty lost the power struggle in SD. All the people that adore Phil Savage better be careful what they wish for if they WANT Marty or Cowher. Both guys were here when they've seen a better breed of football player to coach. An Andra Davis doesn't MAKE a Pittsburgh team but he gets a raise and contract extension from Phil as one of the priorites besides Trent Dilfer and securing Denise Northcutt back in 2005. HALF our Pro Bowl guys in 2007 were here before Savage while one of the other guys wasn't seen as worthy of replacing Northcutt in our return game. The number 3 overall pick went which was nice. Tom Brady's tee time gave Dumb Ass a chance to show he didn't have any business in that game.
I've were gonna clean house again let's CLEAN it right this time or there's no sense doing it all as we've painfully witnessed in strike 1, strike 2 and strike 3 since 99. Let's hit the next pitch out of the park for once.
- Tom F.
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Good post, Tom. Savage isn't off my radar, it's just that I do see RAC as the biggest problem this season. While he might a be a good COACH, he isn't a good HEAD COACH, and I think we all agree he is a poor gameday coach.
When the team is playing this badly, and guys ARE quitting,
Thanks Lem! Let's examine that last phrase above for a second. What would you do if you went and saw your favorite band playing in concert and the lead singer quit in the first quarter of that show? Would you leapfrog the singer to blame the band's pee-on manager? Who's got the POWER there - the box office draw or the nobody that arranged the show for the band?
IMO, if our GM doesn't know that winners never quit and quitters never win he's in the wrong business so the business he runs HAS to suck. The GOAL of every team is post season so HOW has Savage done? We got ZERO from the following millionaires Savage held us hostage with as ENORMOUS commitments to 2008:
1) Jamal Lewis
2) Andra Davis
3) Donte Stallworth
4) Dumb Ass (how did that contract change set us up for Quinn in week 1?)
5) Corey Williams
6) AWOL Tucker (count back to the last time we didn't lose him for at least 4 weeks. Shame on us this time!)
7) Kevin Shaffer (paid to start as a blind side tackle - had the clutch whiff on Mathis for game losing score)
Hank Fraley (Philly demoted him 3 years ago BUT he was the least 11 evils replacing Bentley so by all means keep him another 12 seasons since we can't DRAFT anyone better)I'm too tired to bring up all the glugs Savage brought here as overpaid commitments post-prime. Not to mention how many high priced free agents got injured.
What WR can we look to when Edwards drops every pass? Travis Wilson? Stubbedtoes? Who's we draft? We're 3 TEs deep today so when Dinkins Donuts isn't focusing on football when the ball bounes off his hands - WHO's more interested - the inexperienced guy coming off knee surgery WITHOUT the staff infection? Yay! This is DEEPER than the Head Coach, which still doesn't excuse RAC from sucking. Never said it did. I'm just right back where I was in 2000 asking if we're remving the entire disease or just 50% of it. Actually, it's 33% owner, 33% Personnel Director/GM, 33% Head Coach, 1% towel boy with the toe cheese spreading the staph infections.
My question is WHAT human in the right mind sees Cleveland as a GREAT opportunity WITHOUT removing Phil Savage above him? I've got a sick pit in my stomach we're not getting Marty or Cowher. And don't think Marty and Cowher didn't have conflicts with GMs they felt weren't up to snuff. "Hey I just sent Drew Brees packing" wasn't about to improve Marty's relationship with the goofball thinking Norv Turner is just what the doctor ordered in SD. Donahoe got his walking papers in Pittsburgh while Marty lost the power struggle in SD. All the people that adore Phil Savage better be careful what they wish for if they WANT Marty or Cowher. Both guys were here when they've seen a better breed of football player to coach. An Andra Davis doesn't MAKE a Pittsburgh team but he gets a raise and contract extension from Phil as one of the priorites besides Trent Dilfer and securing Denise Northcutt back in 2005. HALF our Pro Bowl guys in 2007 were here before Savage while one of the other guys wasn't seen as worthy of replacing Northcutt in our return game. The number 3 overall pick went which was nice. Tom Brady's tee time gave Dumb Ass a chance to show he didn't have any business in that game.
I've were gonna clean house again let's CLEAN it right this time or there's no sense doing it all as we've painfully witnessed in strike 1, strike 2 and strike 3 since 99. Let's hit the next pitch out of the park for once.
- Tom F.
IMO, if our GM doesn't know that winners never quit and quitters never win he's in the wrong business so the business he runs HAS to suck. The GOAL of every team is post season so HOW has Savage done? We got ZERO from the following millionaires Savage held us hostage with as ENORMOUS commitments to 2008:
1) Jamal Lewis
2) Andra Davis
3) Donte Stallworth
4) Dumb Ass (how did that contract change set us up for Quinn in week 1?)
5) Corey Williams
6) AWOL Tucker (count back to the last time we didn't lose him for at least 4 weeks. Shame on us this time!)
7) Kevin Shaffer (paid to start as a blind side tackle - had the clutch whiff on Mathis for game losing score)
Hank Fraley (Philly demoted him 3 years ago BUT he was the least 11 evils replacing Bentley so by all means keep him another 12 seasons since we can't DRAFT anyone better)- Tom F.
There are a few things off with that list Thom.
1) I agree CLE should not have made quite the investment back into Jamal. He had a good year last year, but is still on the decline. I think Phil invisioned Harrision seeing more time and truly splitting time w/ Lewis (as he should be). This reminds me much of our other discussion on CAR w/ Williams. Williams was not given the touches his 1st two years that maybe he should have had, instead of the aging vet.
2) Davis got a pay cut in the offseason and contract reduced to just this year. So actually his drop off was recognized and pay adjusted accordingly. Not really holding the team hostage.
3) Stallworth again is another guy whose deal is basically a one year. He was at the time the best available WR in FA. His missing time did not help though, and neither did teams catching on to DA.
4) DA came out of no where last year. He did have a great 1st half of last season. While I and some others may have guessed him right back in 2006, it doesn't mean he didn't warrent a chance this year. But I think it should have a been a true QB competition between him and Quinn. I think that had more to do with RAC than Phil. I mean why would a GM jump up in the draft to get a QB he believe was a franchise QB, then want to truly hold him back. Plus, DA again got a cheap one year deal really. He also jumped on CLE offer, so I don't buy there was much of a market for him.
5) Williams has played well, despite playing with 1 arm all year. He was worth the trade value and isn't over the hill in age.
6) CLE originally want' really counting on Tucker. Going in they had Hadnot and Friedman as options for C/G for depth, besides Tucker. But Friedman going down changed that in a heart beat (as well has hurt special teams a bit, since he was the center of the wedge).
7) Big wiff by Phil. It was a desperate move to try and fill the hole at LT originally, when Shaffer really wasn't a true left tackle (blocking the front side of a left handed Vick). This move in my opinion was the biggest FA blunder by Phil. Not just for the guy, but the money and contract structure.
Fraley played well his 1st two years. He was a good pick up after Bently went down w/ his freak injury and the back up then quit when thrust to a starting roll. This move to me is one of Phil's best. To find a guy who can legitimately start for two seasons, half way through camp after an injury and a dude quitting takes some savy.Phil could very well be a much bigger problem than I give him credit as being. It's just really hard to tell. There has been pletty of young players drafted that look the part and seem the part, yet don't improve on the field. When guys don't seem to improve on basics on the field and play like day one, I have to put that on the coaching staff (which must start at the HC when it is across both sides of the ball).
I don't think Phil should be running an entire front office (and most GMs don't). That to me is why there is sometimes the "chaos" reported in CLE front office. Phil is a hands on talent evaluator, so he isn't in the office all the time. To me that allows for the inmates to run the assylum to much. I doubt he has surrounded himself w/ enough people that can run the shop while he is out (a flaw). I think Phil should be traditional GM, in that he handles scouting, player personal dept, and such. But with a true president or VP of football operations. Someone who can really do the true business side of the front office. It ain't who Phil is.
I also don't think Phil is any football genius from a X's and O's. I believe he shops for the grocery list. As an example, I think the heavy (weight wise) DL across all 3 spots was what RAC wanted. RAC seems to want to play a 3-4 that sits and zone with dreams of pressure coming from the 3 guys. Phil got him the guys, but really its just a bad idea to begin with. It doesn't work and never will. I get this impression more after reading through all the things on the QB change. In one of the Phil interviews, he basically gives you a peak at his management style (I've encounted this style myself). When discussing what is goign on, he basically asks his people questions and just gets them to explain why they are doing it (it's meant to get people to flush out what they over looked on their own). But still lets them do it their way. It can be good in regular business (I am guessing Phil started reading management books once he had to start doing more business like managing), but it doesn't work in football imo. This again would be that weakness in Phil and why there should be a VP of football operations.
I guess in the end it comes down to what others outside of CLE have been saying about them now. CLE lacks leadership. From the front office down to in the locker room. Now, I don't think that should be coming from the GM, other than direction (I mean do you really hear about in TB, IND, NE, NYG, PIT, etc. leadership of the team being in the front office (maybe PIT)? No, it starts at the coach and then players within the locker room (but those leaders are usually a reflection of the coach as well). In the end, those are the guys practicing, preparing, and playing on Sunday. RAC has just not been a leader of men, and thus leaders (used loosely) on the team will be a reflection of that (plus how much will other guys follow if they don't buy the coach as a leader). Guys like RAC. I am sure he is a great guy and cares. But being likable doesn't mean you should be leading a team.
The closest CLE has had to a leader in a HC since the return was Davis. Unfortunately he was given the full control and he couldn't handle that job. He really had no business being in a GM roll. If he were to have just been a HC, I think he might have done well over time. CLE needs to find that type of coach. A guy who player have a little fear, and maybe even a little bit of hatret toward sometimes. Not someone they think is just a great guy and all cuddly like their grandpa.
p.s. thanks for the compliment
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First off I would like to congratulate you all for a spirited discussion!
Unfortunately a lot of it happened interspersed with the need to piss on me!
Stan indeed gets kudos for running an outstanding board albeit he too uses bad judgment at times.
For my good friend Inspecta........two things one a repeat.........again I never said a peep about the fans in this thread just made a correctomundo observation about what it is in what makes winning football.....so you should retract that error.....and I do want Romeo fired..........so that premise is a non starter and also should be retracted
Cal, I appreciate your great post...............except your premise is 100% wrong ......similar to Sewages.........thus discussion is impossible but I will ask how many TD's does Joe Thomas have the last four games or made happen?
For my good friend Flugels. Your posts were magnanimous insightful and full of food for thought.
Solon you are the second best talent evaluator on these threads
Masters you are good football person in need of fundamentals of winning which hinders your abilities. Further your belligerence and denial syndrome hurts your debate skills.......like the math denial stuff
Back to Stan.........and his occasional bad judgment .........choosing a anger management nut case and a complete anus Mr. RifferX as a moderator was not a good thing but heck I can live with him pissing on me at will.
For the rest of you'all that posted thougts about football instead of me...........good job carry on and keep expressing your ideas..........all thinking is encouraged
Now back to business of the two things...........intended in this post.
Success of an offensive line.........and the complete failure of Sewage
Sewage blows and needs fired........that is the main premise always was........no fans mentioned........no players mentioned...........just downright pitiful performance........and that is documented.....it is his team complete control and he sucks........I have listed 29 blunders of Sewage and there are more
The offensive line is what it is and is what all offensive lines are a dime a dozen and pro bowlers when you got studs playing at skill positions and just plain offensive when you do not.............no one here in this long thread addressed why we have zero TD's in four games ......... with our great line that is what makes offenses go.......what gives there?
Romeo, whom I never really addressed but got accused of liking should be sent packing ............unfortunatetely our man Sewage set him up to be the fall guy long ago
Now let's discuss the mush of contention......OL guys and being a dime a dozen...............
Has anyone noticed the Giants offense went comatose the last two weeks without Jacobs and Plaxico...........hmmmmmmmmm dere best line in football did squat......our line produced zero tds in four games........ohhhhh boy.........Steelers have a seive and won 11 games..............NE won three super bowls with two FA lineman
NOW I want to address the three or four misleading sets of numbers presented earlier about payrolls of teams and false comparisons of Browns OL pay vs other supposed top lines ie Carolina and the NYG which were the examples........of course those teams won many games and we lost many
Further I suspect those numbers as well as being wrong took out context such things as bonus money paid up front and bonus money counting against the cap each year.........
So I will post the Browns salaries against the cap this year.............just below
but first I thank Stan for allowing me to be the board whipping boy for always each year year in year out getting right and laughing about the genius reponses congratulating my
brilliance
here are the real numbers for 2008 unemcumbered against the cap...........enjoy and do not counter unless you provide total numbers of the contract including bonuses and pay per year.............thanks again for the spirited lively discussion.......not you riffer or erty or whatever you are a perfect anus incapable of debate.............
Joe Thomas(OL)$9,460,000
Eric Steinbach(OL)$9,266,666
Braylon Edwards(WR)$7,993,750
Jamal Lewis(RB)$6,500,000
Kevin Shaffer(OL)$5,016,041
Ryan Pontbriand(OL)$4,975,000
Kellen Winslow(TE)$4,599,584
Ryan Tucker(OL)4,317,975
Willie McGinest(LB)$3,666,668
Andra Davis(LB)$3,600,000
Shaun Rogers(DT)$3,433,333
Derek Anderson(QB)$3,333,333
Corey Williams(DT)$3,283,333
Joe Jurevicius(WR)$3,062,500
0Robaire Smith(DE)$3,000,000$0$0$0
Rex Hadnot(OL)$2,450,000$0$0$
0Antwan Peek(LB)$2,433,333$0$0$0
Sean Jones(S)$2,421,720$0$0$0
LeCharles Bentley(OL)$2,350,000$0$0$
0Hank Fraley(OL$2,212,500$0$0$
0Shaun Smith(DT)$2,100,000$0$0$0
Kamerion Wimbley(DE)$1,841,250$0$0$0
Steve Heiden(TE)$1,750,000$0$0$0
Dave Zastudil(K)$1,676,720$0$0$0
Phil Dawson(K)$1,470,000$0$0$0
Brady Quinn(QB)$1,440,470$0$0$
0Donte Stallworth(WR)$1,405,000$0$0$0
Brodney Pool(S)$1,106,220$0$0
$0D'Qwell Jackson(LB)$1,105,000$0$0
$0Joshua Cribbs(WR)$1,045,000$0$0$0
Jason Wright(RB)$946,220$0$0$
0Kenny Wright(CB)$945,053$0
$0$Kris Griffin(LB)$933,720
\That comes to 37.7 plus million and if you want to delete Pontribriand subtract 5 million.......
McKinney and Freidman are not listed but make a million betweeon them so add that to the total....... the real number for the OL is 38.7 mil this year........10 mil per win
Paying Lewis what he is making is a joke and best I can tell only Cribbs and Jackson are not overpaid
remember the important thing though.............firing Sewage.........this is what this thread is mainly about and his incompetence
So guys I am turning this back over to you all to engage discuss and reason.........except those who just want to piss on me ............eh riffer er erty
I rest my case now riffer whip your tiny penis out and start peeing on me
Moderate----- Websters...........to lead opposing positions to engage and debate the issues and arrive at logical conclusions............rifferX that is for you if you can comprehend what your job is
730 views and 59 responses in two days from me a no nothing in discussion of a comatose team is pretty damn good I may say..........ole Rich can still generate a big time audience
GO BROWNS
Offense Wins.......Franchise QB's are the key.............Defense keeps you in the game.........Go Buckeyes
.jpg.a1a2b9a0c33008fdaf4097d8fe2cfd64.jpg "Riffer X"){kind=avatar}
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