Jonathan Paul Manziel
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This forum now reminds me of walking into a bar sober, and having to listen to the drunks argue nonsensically about what year Camaro is best.
This forum now reminds me of walking into a bar sober, and having to listen to the drunks argue nonsensically about what year Camaro is best.
So you equate Hoyer and Thigpen to the piece of shit car that is a Camaro?
I basically agree with that sentiment.
I'm awesome, and I fuck dolphins. Ghoolie 12/2/2012: I have absolutely no skills, training or pride -
@douche-nozzle said:
Over the last 15 years for sure, and debatably over the last 40, the Browns have earned higher draft picks, and done less with those draft picks, than any team with the possible exception of Detroit. This is proven by the fact that despite having the highest average draft picks, they are still at the bottom of the league. That really shouldn't be that hard to follow.
I love the emphasis some of you put on luck to explain why the Browns suck and the Steelers excel.
There is some luck to it...good or bad. BR could have turned out like Weeden and Quinn. You got lucky that he didn't.
You didn't get lucky when you drafted Gabe Rivera many years ago.
I don't think you have been particularly lucky at drafting All Pros for the last few years. A pretty average lot.
You (not the team) ARE lucky that you have ownership and front office competency which the Browns/Lions/Bengals have not had.
There is nothing about Pittsburgh that warrants the kind of success you have had over any of these other similar cities. Your fan base is lucky you had Dan Rooney et al in place.
Just like we were lucky to have the Paul Browns and Blanton Collier's when you were unlucky to have whomever you had running things. As nice a guy as Art Rooney was I am sure and as many positive things there may to be said about him, he wasn't a very competent team manager. for 40 years.
There is some luck to it...good or bad. BR could have turned out like Weeden and Quinn. You got lucky that he didn't.
You didn't get lucky when you drafted Gabe Rivera many years ago.
I don't think you have been particularly lucky at drafting All Pros for the last few years. A pretty average lot.
You (not the team) ARE lucky that you have ownership and front office competency which the Browns/Lions/Bengals have not had.
There is nothing about Pittsburgh that warrants the kind of success you have had over any of these other similar cities. Your fan base is lucky you had Dan Rooney et al in place.
Just like we were lucky to have the Paul Browns and Blanton Collier's when you were unlucky to have whomever you had running things. As nice a guy as Art Rooney was I am sure and as many positive things there may to be said about him, he wasn't a very competent team manager. for 40 years.
Luck is a factor, certainly.
But when it continues to happen, I don't think it's exactly luck. Its stability and good scouting. Just like when we continue to take shit prospects its not a string of bad luck. It's instability and bad scouting.
The instability comes in in changing schemes every two years. For example, Manziel could be a great prospect for us and this Shanahan-style offense. But if a shit season happens, we clean house, and the next coach implements a pro-style offense with very little movement and a traditional pocket...we're fucked again.
However, Brandon Weeden was put into a system that played to his strengths, a vertical route, shotgun spread offense and he still stunk to high heaven. That's where the bad scouting comes in.
Wouldn't it be great to have a set offensive philosophy filled with the players that fit it, and keep that same mentality for 10 years? I'm sure we'd be able to amass some great talent over that time like the Steelers have.
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@douche-nozzle said:
Over the last 15 years for sure, and debatably over the last 40, the Browns have earned higher draft picks, and done less with those draft picks, than any team with the possible exception of Detroit. This is proven by the fact that despite having the highest average draft picks, they are still at the bottom of the league. That really shouldn't be that hard to follow.
I love the emphasis some of you put on luck to explain why the Browns suck and the Steelers excel.
I don't disagree completely with you here. I'm also pointing out (both here and in your Myopia thread, which your name change had me confused for a moment) that you want to chest-thump that the Browns are at the bottom and the Steelers are the best and can do no wrong. Your extremes of homerism is where I'm calling BS. I don't know very little about the Steelers history and stats, but I don't recall QB drafts like Bubby Brister or Kordell Stewart being "great draft picks".
I was calling out luck about the 4 HOF's picked in the '74 draft. That was damn lucky, no one can contest that. As for the rest, TCPO makes a good point that I agree with.
The point of this discussion was that you think the Steelers are the best ever at everything...since the 1970 merger...and the Browns are the worst of everything in that same time frame. It's pure BS, because you don't want to include the entire history of pro football and the Browns have not been on the bottom for the last 40 years.
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So you equate Hoyer and Thigpen to the piece of shit car that is a Camaro?
I basically agree with that sentiment.
Thank you for proving my point lol. Carry on.
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This forum now reminds me of walking into a bar sober, and having to listen to the drunks argue nonsensically about what year Camaro is best.
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Brian's 2013 is in there? Where? Here are his numbers per http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/H/HoyeBr00.htm...
Year 2013 28 CLE G 3 GS 3 QBrec 3-0-0 Cmp 57 Att 96 Cmp% 59.4 Yds 615
TD 5 TD% 5.2 Int 3 Int% 3.1 Lng 47 Y/A 6.4 AY/A 6.0 Y/C 10.8 Y/G 205.0 Rate 82.6
I think you copied his career totals by mistake my friend...
Nonetheless the resume is thin to be sure, but even you said you felt a twinge of "it" watching him vs. MN and Cinci last year.
Yeah, I misspoke. I tried to compare season statistics of Browns QB's in similar scenarios (3-8 games, season cut short by injury, etc.) to Hoyer's entire career.
Regardless, the point is the same. Fans are misremembering how Hoyer performed. They were so happy to see an average quarterback that they glorify the performance of Hoyer without actually breaking it down.
I admit, I did get that "it" feeling from him against Minnesota. I knew the entire time that we were going to win that game. Hoyer was a breath of fresh air and I would absolutely love for him to earn the starting role.
But a world-beater, he has yet to be. He's competing against three other quarterbacks who are more mobile than him, fit our offensive coordinators scheme bettter, are not coming off major injury, and are either winners at their respective schools or have more NFL experience than him.
1 of them won't make it. Someone will get cut. Logic would say that it would be Shaw, but he wouldn't clear waivers and he might be a fantastic backup NFL QB...Farmer might not want to risk losing that.
It's not Hoyer's job to lose...it's any of the four's to win.
This is dumb. Stats? meaning....what?
that Lauvau sp? played poorly at RG on pass plays?
That Little dropped passes?
Going back further, Robieski and Massaquoi sp/sp?
And the "stats" are supposed to reflect how good the qb is?
Really dumb thread. Just more histerical historical bitch festing.
Tired of it, already.
You put stats in quotes like they're fake. They are real. Those are what stats are...numbers that categorically gauge how a player plays.
The rest of the shit you listed? Those are excuses.
"Oh, but if so and so didn't blah blah blah, then we'd be the best in the world!"
It's the crutch that Cleveland fans have been using as support for the past 15 years.
I absolutely DID notice Hoyer's stats were in there- but I was working until 4 hours after you posted it.
OK, fine, you don't like Hoyer and think he's a career backup. You're entitled to you opinion. Maybe he is just another Scott Mitchell 3 game wonder, then again, maybe not. Too bad I get blasted for questioning Manziel, who hasn't even played a snap yet in the NFL.
There are a few instances of qbs being nothing but mediocre their first 5-6 years or so, and finally the light goes on. In my book, Hoyer at least deserves the benefit of the doubt. Unless you think JF stands a better chance of winning the first three games before the bye. We've been down that road before- rushing a high potential qb into a starting role, and seeing him fold line an accordion.
I think we've tried every conceivable option since '99 in the qb market- draft 'em high (Couch, Quinn, We-done) middle (Frye, McCoy) low Wynn. FA's Garcia, Anderson, Delhomme. Trades (Dilfer, Wallace). So I guess why not bring in the mega-hyped Heisman winner, and see if he can break the streak? I'm not holding my breath.
This isn't Hoyer v. Manziel. This is Hoyer v. Manziel v. Thigpen v. Shaw.
Hoyer doesn't deserve benefit of the doubt. He deserves a fair and equal shot, just like the rest of the quarterbacks on the roster. Whoever performs best should get the job, plain and simple. It should be "Oh, well Manziel is clearly better than Hoyer but he's a rookie, so let's give the job to Hoyer" or " Hoyer has outperformed Manziel, but we have to start Manziel."
I do like Hoyer. I don't know how many times I can say it.
I. Like. Brian. Hoyer.
But he "deserves" a shot just as much as you or I deserve one. He needs to earn his keep...and he's not the best suited for this offense. There's three other QB's who fit this offense better. One of them has more NFL experience, the other two have a shitload more wins and upside.
Hoyer's only asset is that he learned under Tom Brady and that he seems to make quick decisions, thats it. Manziel and Thigpen are more mobile. Manziel, Shaw and Thigpen were all winners in college and the BMOC. Thigpen has more experience. Manziel has the media attention.
Thigpen was brought on by Pettine for a reason. He must have seen something he liked in Buffalo.
i looked at his numbers (all of them) last night. wtf am i supposed to be impressed with? one season he had decent numbers where he started 14 games 18 tds and 12 ints with a just over 50% completion rate?the season where KC put up their franchise worse record of 2-14? in every other season he has thrown the same or more interceptions as TDs?
that tyler thigpen?
why, all of a sudden, have you turned into some thigpen groupie? what do you mean "hoyer deserves the shot"? they all deserve the shot dude. no one is putting hoyer in the driver's seat yet. thigpen has as much chance as hoyer and manziel do to be the starting QB.
you (and the JF fans) take the fact that if someone says "we liked what we saw from hoyer last year" as a diss towards 'your' boy. it's not like that. do you see me posting about how 'hoyer is the shit' and 'he'll take us to the promised land' and blah blah blah? no. how many threads/posts have there been saying brian hoyer is a future pro-bowler and hall of famer and is the number one QB on this team? none from me.
don't group yourself in with the man/boy love shit going on in this forum right now. i think you're better than that.
and i'll go on record now so you and mike and all the JF queefs understand this.......... i don't give a flying F who QBs this team. hoyer great. thigpen great. manziel great.
you got the starting gig, now win.
I don't take "we like what we saw from Hoyer" as a slight to any of the quarterbacks. I liked what I saw from Hoyer, to a certain extent.
I take "its Hoyer's job to lose" as a slight. Or "let's have Hoyer start this year and Manziel next year". Those are slights.
Yes, I like Tyler Thigpen. He's from my school and I played football with him. I don't apologize for liking him.
He also has more NFL experience, is more mobile, isn't coming off an injury, and is just about the same age as Hoyer. So my question is...why is it Hoyer's job to lose?
As for Thigpen's record at KC...I'm pretty impressed with it, to be honest. For having the worst defense in the league, no runningback and no receivers other than Dwayne Bowe, Thigpen still performed admirably.
What's really important to me is how Thigpen performed when Herm Edwards switched from a run-heavy offense to a spread offense (similar in philosophy to Shanahan's).
Hoyer's first three starts: 57-96 59.4% 615 yds 5 TD 3 INT Rat 82.6
Thigpen's first three starts: 66-102 63.6% 710 yds. 6 TD 0 INT Rat 102.9
So, yes...that Tyler Thigpen.
Regardless, the point is the same. Fans are misremembering how Hoyer performed. They were so happy to see an average quarterback that they glorify the performance of Hoyer without actually breaking it down.
We can only remember what we saw... and Hoyer's 3-game stretch last season was the first I have seen him since his days at Michigan State.
But a world-beater, he has yet to be.
True, and he may never be, but I want to see.
I do like Hoyer. I don't know how many times I can say it. I. Like. Brian. Hoyer.
Stop it before Brian gets a restraining order.
But he "deserves" a shot just as much as you or I deserve one. He needs to earn his keep...and he's not the best suited for this offense. There's three other QB's who fit this offense better. One of them has more NFL experience, the other two have a shitload more wins and upside. Hoyer's only asset is that he learned under Tom Brady and that he seems to make quick decisions, thats it. Manziel and Thigpen are more mobile. Manziel, Shaw and Thigpen were all winners in college and the BMOC. Thigpen has more experience. Manziel has the media attention.
That's a pretty fucking big it. And it's not like Hoyer is immobile. Brian had more than adequate roll-out skills and moved nicely in the pocket. We'll see if he still does. At Michigan State Brian was 9-4 his Senior year and 7-6 his Junior. His BMOC status is not available at College Football Ref
Thigpen was brought on by Pettine for a reason. He must have seen something he liked in Buffalo.
And Pettine had to game plan against Hoyer in 2013, so I feel pretty sure his giving Brian the #1's snaps is due to more than just a default position.
He also has more NFL experience, is more mobile, isn't coming off an injury, and is just about the same age as Hoyer. So my question is...why is it Hoyer's job to lose?
Because Pettine says so... as of now.
Hoyer's first three starts: 57-96 59.4% 615 yds 5 TD 3 INT Rat 82.6
Thigpen's first three starts: 66-102 63.6% 710 yds. 6 TD 0 INT Rat 102.9
And mine is: what happened that Thigpen lost his starting job in KC and was ulitimately traded, and then ended up out of football entirely in 2013? Seriously... I don't know why...
This forum now reminds me of walking into a bar sober, and having to listen to the drunks argue nonsensically about what year Camaro is best.
Hands down it was '68! Wanna fight aboudit? Pass the beer nuts, please...
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He also has more NFL experience, is more mobile, isn't coming off an injury, and is just about the same age as Hoyer. So my question is...why is it Hoyer's job to lose?
Wanted to expand on this just a bit...
Remembering that Pettine is a Defensive minded coach, and that (setting my LB questions aside) we are staring at what promises to be a very, very good D in 2014. With that combination the logical choice for QB is one that will not lose games, i.e., a "game manager". Of all the QBs currently in Berea who best fits this description?
I think that criteria immediately eliminates both rookies simply because they are rookies.
Of the two vets I know that Hoyer matched this description when last seen... the Cinci game showed me that. Did Thigpen when last seen?
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@douche-nozzle said:
Over the last 15 years for sure, and debatably over the last 40, the Browns have earned higher draft picks, and done less with those draft picks, than any team with the possible exception of Detroit. This is proven by the fact that despite having the highest average draft picks, they are still at the bottom of the league. That really shouldn't be that hard to follow.
I love the emphasis some of you put on luck to explain why the Browns suck and the Steelers excel.
I don't disagree completely with you here. I'm also pointing out (both here and in your Myopia thread, which your name change had me confused for a moment) that you want to chest-thump that the Browns are at the bottom and the Steelers are the best and can do no wrong. Your extremes of homerism is where I'm calling BS. I don't know very little about the Steelers history and stats, but I don't recall QB drafts like Bubby Brister or Kordell Stewart being "great draft picks".
I was calling out luck about the 4 HOF's picked in the '74 draft. That was damn lucky, no one can contest that. As for the rest, TCPO makes a good point that I agree with.
The point of this discussion was that you think the Steelers are the best ever at everything...since the 1970 merger...and the Browns are the worst of everything in that same time frame. It's pure BS, because you don't want to include the entire history of pro football and the Browns have not been on the bottom for the last 40 years.
I don't disagree completely with you here. I'm also pointing out (both here and in your Myopia thread, which your name change had me confused for a moment) that you want to chest-thump that the Browns are at the bottom and the Steelers are the best and can do no wrong. Your extremes of homerism is where I'm calling BS. I don't know very little about the Steelers history and stats, but I don't recall QB drafts like Bubby Brister or Kordell Stewart being "great draft picks".
I was calling out luck about the 4 HOF's picked in the '74 draft. That was damn lucky, no one can contest that. As for the rest, TCPO makes a good point that I agree with.
The point of this discussion was that you think the Steelers are the best ever at everything...since the 1970 merger...and the Browns are the worst of everything in that same time frame. It's pure BS, because you don't want to include the entire history of pro football and the Browns have not been on the bottom for the last 40 years.
As I pointed out, it is really only since the "Lerner era" began that things have been so bad. From 1964 to 1994 the Browns still had like the 7th best overall record in the league during those years.
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This forum now reminds me of walking into a bar sober, and having to listen to the drunks argue nonsensically about what year Camaro is best.
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Isn't it kind of pathetic that a Steeler fan has nothing to be excited about on his own team and has to come here and try and bash our draft pick? Sounds like he's obsessed with the Browns.
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@douche-nozzle said:
Over the last 15 years for sure, and debatably over the last 40, the Browns have earned higher draft picks, and done less with those draft picks, than any team with the possible exception of Detroit. This is proven by the fact that despite having the highest average draft picks, they are still at the bottom of the league. That really shouldn't be that hard to follow.
I love the emphasis some of you put on luck to explain why the Browns suck and the Steelers excel.
The reasons the Steelers excel and the Browns haven't are the same for both teams. It starts at the ownership level. Competent owners hire competent staff that puts together a competent team. The Browns finally have the owner and staff and the team is almost there. If your a Steelers fan and you don't recognize the Browns are finally on the rise you're in for a rude awakening.
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I'll try to keep this short. But it does require some preamble before I get to the point.
Full disclosure I'm a Washington Redskins fan but also a fan of the NFL.
Huge football fan, both college and NFL.
I started watching A&M b/c of their offense with Jerrod Johnson then Ryan Tannehill then Manziel.
Draftnerd too.
I think you guys had a good draft one of my favorite prospects with ILB Christian Kirksey who imho has a skillset that rivals 1st round pick Ryan Shazier. And stole Terrence West local kid(Baltimore) out of Towson University.
As a Redskin's fan I have some knowledge of Kyle's offense.(if you're interested)
.I'm posting because I have a some questions that imho require a local perspective.
Being a Redskin's fan an enduring the circus that went on last year I know how the national media can get a story wrong.
So, I was hoping to find out the local perception of how your owner and front office are handling Manziel.
Cheers to a (hopefully) good season. -
Washington, D.C. metro area - worst in the USA. Shit city and region. Fuck the foreskins.
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Very nice read. Nick Saban told Johnny in front of the ESPN cameras that he was one of the greatest competitors he has ever seen in his 40 years of coaching football. Once they take the bit out of his mouth and tell him he can just compete and not have to "act like a backup", they will see a completely different person. Right now he's toning it down under orders and saying what they want him to say. You'd think they'd bought a nag from a dog food factory instead of what he is.
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Very nice read. Nick Saban told Johnny in front of the ESPN cameras that he was one of the greatest competitors he has ever seen in his 40 years of coaching football. Once they take the bit out of his mouth and tell him he can just compete and not have to "act like a backup", they will see a completely different person. Right now he's toning it down under orders and saying what they want him to say. You'd think they'd bought a nag from a dog food factory instead of what he is.
Very nice read. Nick Saban told Johnny in front of the ESPN cameras that he was one of the greatest competitors he has ever seen in his 40 years of coaching football. Once they take the bit out of his mouth and tell him he can just compete and not have to "act like a backup", they will see a completely different person. Right now he's toning it down under orders and saying what they want him to say. You'd think they'd bought a nag from a dog food factory instead of what he is.
I think the "toning down" is more to back off the media. When he's ready, Johnny will be playing his game. I love the kid but he IS a rookie.
Mke
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@douche-nozzle said:
You can't use those few exception as your reasoning unless you are also willing to look at the hundreds and hundreds of cases the go the other way.
As far as new versus old Browns management, I agree one does not influence the other, but even more logical is that the current FO has "ZERO experience, individually or collectively, at their current positions. To think they are going to hit the nail on the head in their first attempt has higher odds than getting a player of Brady's ability at 199.
That's five pretty fuckin good exceptions. Face it the pundits and experts don't always know.
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@douche-nozzle said:
Just so you know, I don't profess that the Steelers are great at everything and the Browns suck at everything. I just point out the facts because I actually believe that the average Browns fan has no idea how bad they have been in the modern era of football. It's simple, the Steelers are average to exceptional every year and the Browns are bad to horrible every year.
I give the Browns their props for their success in the early days of football but let's be honest, nobody but Clevelanders cares about that. I like the fact that the team I root for was the worst of the worst and made themselves into the best. I dislike someone who was the best and went to live at the bottom, and I really dislike people who live in the sewer and tell the guy on the cover of GQ that he stinks.....it's truly laughable.....which is a big part of why I enjoy this forum......it's entertainment.
P.S. The name change thing is on your fearless leader who is the biggest chicken shit of all. He can't stand hearing the truth so he edits, deletes, and modifies until he likes it. He changes user names because he is not man enough to partake in open debate. He is spineless.
Remember that ten year period in modern football called the eighties?
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meanwhile if you knew how to drive a z28 (know about that one littetons) you could blow away a 3.17 barracuda or any stock mustang on the road at the time.
just cuz the car is sleek and flashy doesn't mean it'll come in first place.
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Mike-I know you are right. Sumlin did the same thing by not allowing any freshmen or redshirt freshmen to speak to the media until after the season was over.
It's just a little frustrating watching him play possum for you until he is given free reign to show all that he brings to the table. Time will take care of it. I know the staff is trying to protect him from the usual QB ruination that can happen if he is thrown in too soon. It's just that they threw him in to the SEC and he came out king of the world and brought us the highest final rankings since the days of Bear Bryant and our last Heisman winner in the mid 50's. I'm just liking his coming to a place that thirsts for a winner just as much or more than we did.
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Mike-I know you are right. Sumlin did the same thing by not allowing any freshmen or redshirt freshmen to speak to the media until after the season was over.
It's just a little frustrating watching him play possum for you until he is given free reign to show all that he brings to the table. Time will take care of it. I know the staff is trying to protect him from the usual QB ruination that can happen if he is thrown in too soon. It's just that they threw him in to the SEC and he came out king of the world and brought us the highest final rankings since the days of Bear Bryant and our last Heisman winner in the mid 50's. I'm just liking his coming to a place that thirsts for a winner just as much or more than we did.
Mike-I know you are right. Sumlin did the same thing by not allowing any freshmen or redshirt freshmen to speak to the media until after the season was over.
It's just a little frustrating watching him play possum for you until he is given free reign to show all that he brings to the table. Time will take care of it. I know the staff is trying to protect him from the usual QB ruination that can happen if he is thrown in too soon. It's just that they threw him in to the SEC and he came out king of the world and brought us the highest final rankings since the days of Bear Bryant and our last Heisman winner in the mid 50's. I'm just liking his coming to a place that thirsts for a winner just as much or more than we did.
Love your last sentence. His passion, leadership, & excitement are contagious. Those qualities alone are invaluable whether or not he is on the field. If & when Coach Pettine & staff see fit to name Johnny the starter, he'll be ready & I believe he'll excel.
Drafting Johnny is the "shot in the arm" Cleveland needed.
Mike
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