For the religious - a question

MLD Woody

I would think discoveries like this would require believers to have an even looser interpretation of their holy book.

On time travel, I don't really see how that's possible without a multiverse theory (from my understanding of it at least). Maybe going forward in time though, which theoretically is already possible.

The Cysko Kid

The Bible and thr Torah and the koran were all written when man was ignorant of the universe. If there is a god and he created all why would you reveal the infinite universe to someone who wasn't ready?

FairHooker11

@mld-woody said:

I would think discoveries like this would require believers to have an even looser interpretation of their holy book.

On time travel, I don't really see how that's possible without a multiverse theory (from my understanding of it at least). Maybe going forward in time though, which theoretically is already possible.

somehow "looser interpretations" comes off as funny from an engineer whose discipline is grounded in strict interpretations?

when it is exactly discoveries such as those gathered so far, that exclaim more intellegence than ourselves, even if it seems mysterious.

FairHooker11

@gftchris said:

I'm not trying to attack anything and I'm sorry if you feel I am.

I guess the angle I'm thinking is "great creator, made the universe for humans" - the traditional holy books typically present humanity as the chosen species and the earth as the chosen planet of their respective deity. If we find other life, how does that reconcile with that stance? And what about intelligent life?

actually the jews are the chosen people through the ancient covenants by God described in the hebrew texts of the Torah ( and later transcribed into greek.)

the claims made by the bible writers are only taken by faith and are simply put to the reader or seeker as "will you believe?"

FairHooker11

which leaves it as just faith.... not science first and only - but a faith proved by scientific discovery?

OldBrownsFan

What does the Bible say about the number of stars? Jeremiah writes: ‘As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, neither the sand of the sea measured: so will I multiply the seed of David my servant’ Jeremiah 33:22. At that time, when men of learning were convinced that there were only about 3,000 stars, Jeremiah wrote that nobody would be able to count the stars.

The bible does take into account the vastness of the universe. There is no evidence in science or the Bible that there is life elsewhere. We are His handiwork.

The Cysko Kid

@oldbrownsfan said:

What does the Bible say about the number of stars? Jeremiah writes: As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, neither the sand of the sea measured: so will I multiply the seed of David my servant Jeremiah 33:22. At that time, when men of learning were convinced that there were only about 3,000 stars, Jeremiah wrote that nobody would be able to count the stars.

The bible does take into account the vastness of the universe. There is no evidence in science or the Bible that there is life elsewhere. We are His handiwork.

There's life elsewhere.

gftChris

@oldbrownsfan said:

What does the Bible say about the number of stars? Jeremiah writes: ‘As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, neither the sand of the sea measured: so will I multiply the seed of David my servant’ Jeremiah 33:22. At that time, when men of learning were convinced that there were only about 3,000 stars, Jeremiah wrote that nobody would be able to count the stars.

The bible does take into account the vastness of the universe. There is no evidence in science or the Bible that there is life elsewhere. We are His handiwork.

No evidence yet. The question was based on the supposition that, as anticipated by NASA, evidence of some form of life is found. How would you reconcile your beliefs as expressed above with that news?

OldBrownsFan

The Bible and ETs

It is often asked, ‘Just because the Bible teaches about God creating intelligent life only on Earth, why couldn’t He have done so elsewhere?’ After all, Scripture does not discuss everything, e.g. motorcars. However, the biblical objection to ET is not merely an argument from silence. Motor cars, for example, are not a salvation issue, but we believe that sentient,intelligent, moral-decision-capable beings is, because it would undermine the authority of Scripture. In short, understanding the big picture of the Bible/gospel message allows us to conclude clearly that the reason the Bible doesn’t mention extraterrestrials (ETs) is that there aren’t any.¹ Surely, if the earth were to be favoured with a visitation by real extraterrestrials from a galaxy far, far away, then one would reasonably expect that the Bible, and God in His sovereignty and foreknowledge, to mention such a momentous occasion, because it would clearly redefine man's place in the universe.

The Bible indicates that the whole creation groans and travails under the weight of sin (Romans 8:18–22). The effect of the Curse following Adam’s Fall was universal.² Otherwise what would be the point of God destroying this whole creation to make way for a new heavens and Earth—2 Peter 3:13, Revelation 21:1 ff? Therefore, any ETs living elsewhere would have been (unjustly) affected by the Adamic Curse through no fault of their own—they would not have inherited Adam’s sin nature.
When Christ (God) appeared in the flesh, He came to Earth not only to redeem mankind but eventually the whole creation back to Himself (Romans 8:21, Colossians 1:20). However, Christ’s atoning death at Calvary cannot save these hypothetical ETs, because one needs to be a physical descendant of Adam for Christ to be our ‘kinsman-redeemer’ (Isaiah 59:20). Jesus was called ‘the last Adam’ because there was a real first man, Adam (1 Corinthians 15:22,45)—not a first Vulcan, Klingon etc. This is so a sinless human Substitute takes on the punishment all humans deserve for sin (Isaiah 53:6,10; Matthew 20:28; 1 John 2:2, 4:10), with no need to atone for any (non-existent) sin of his own (Hebrews 7:27).
Since this would mean that any ETs would be lost for eternity when this present creation is destroyed in a fervent heat (2 Peter 3:10, 12), some have wondered whether Christ’s sacrifice might be repeated elsewhere for other beings. However, Christ died once for all (Romans 6:10, 1 Peter 3:18) on the earth. He is not going to be crucified and resurrected again on other planets (Hebrews 9:26). This is confirmed by the fact that the redeemed (earthly) church is known as Christ’s bride (Ephesians 5:22–33; Revelation 19:7–9) in a marriage that will last for eternity.³ Christ is not going to be a polygamist with many other brides from other planets.
The Bible makes no provision for God to redeem any other species, any more than to redeem fallen angels (Hebrews 2:16).

gftChris

So you're saying that if there's life elsewhere, the bible is invalidated? I suspect there might be some who disagree with you.

Also, answering a hypothetical by saying the hypothetical wouldn't happen is just poor form.

FairHooker11

I know nobody asked but -

Id rate the "Bible Commentary" used by OBFan as accurate - but it doesnt fit your OP

NASA said life at the molecular level? microbes or something?

Didnt say ETs....

but if you want to talk angelic realm, then well you have something - created beings apart from humans.

OldBrownsFan

@fairhooker11 said:

I know nobody asked but -

Id rate the "Bible Commentary" used by OBFan as accurate - but it doesnt fit your OP

NASA said life at the molecular level? microbes or something?

Didnt say ETs....

but if you want to talk angelic realm, then well you have something - created beings apart from humans.

ET's would invalidate the bible which is why (in bad form) I said that hypothetical would never happen. As for some kind of microbes that would not affect my beliefs.

DieHardBrownsFan

I see no reason why you couldn't believe in the Bible and believe that there are other planets with intelligent life.

OldBrownsFan

Is the Bible falsifiable? And would a real live ET do it?

http://creation.com/is-the-bible-falsifiable

Is the Bible falsifiable? And would a real live ET do it?

(Round 2)
Further response by Gary Bates and Jonathan Sarfati

http://creation.com/is-the-bible-falsifiable-and-would-a-real-live-et-do-it

These are a couple of the commentaries I looked at and agree with.

Westside Steve

Would it falsify the Bible (or your faith) if it turned out Mary was not a virgin?

WSS

DieHardBrownsFan

@oldbrownsfan said:

Is the Bible falsifiable? And would a real live ET do it?

http://creation.com/is-the-bible-falsifiable

Is the Bible falsifiable? And would a real live ET do it?
(Round 2)
Further response by Gary Bates and Jonathan Sarfati

http://creation.com/is-the-bible-falsifiable-and-would-a-real-live-et-do-it

These are a couple of the commentaries I looked at and agree with.

Not sure who those people are, but I don't agree with them.

OldBrownsFan

@westside-steve said:

Would it falsify the Bible (or your faith) if it turned out Mary was not a virgin?

WSS

It would falsify the bible.

http://calvarychapel.com/resources/article/view/why-the-virgin-birth-is-essential-to-christianity/

MLD Woody

The bible hasn't yet been falsified? You have a literal interpretation of it and you see nothing there stopping you?

I would imagine, I'd we did find life somewhere else, religious groups will continue doing mental gymnastics to validate their holy book. Pages will be edited, verses will be reinterpreted or more loosely interpreted. It would be something I'd guess we've seen before.

FairHooker11

@oldbrownsfan said:

ET's would invalidate the bible which is why (in bad form) I said that hypothetical would never happen. As for some kind of microbes that would not affect my beliefs.

thanks -I took a look at the links you gave and can see your point.

and the bible can only be interpreted as literal to a born again spirit filled believer.

but as a casual observer once myself, - there is hope still today,grace and mercy to forgive my sins and yours- but time is running short IMO -dont wait

as we can all see the spirit of anti-christ is very prevalent today, woodys (and like minded people) opinions proves that,

to the mods: does this get me canned / banned from the browns board? I really spend too much time here....

OldBrownsFan

@fairhooker11 said:

thanks -I took a look at the links you gave and can see your point.

and the bible can only be interpreted as literal to a born again spirit filled believer.

but as a casual observer once myself, - there is hope still today,grace and mercy to forgive my sins and yours- but time is running short IMO -dont wait

as we can all see the spirit of anti-christ is very prevalent today, woodys (and like minded people) opinions proves that,

to the mods: does this get me canned / banned from the browns board? I really spend too much time here....

I think we are on topic with what Chris posted. He wanted a Christian perspective on possible life form in outer space. There are some huge problems with what the bible says and life on other planets. I think the big thing that people can't get past is how large the universe is and there just has to be other life out there with the universe being so enormous. How can little earth be so important in such a large universe? http://creation.com/did-god-create-life-on-other-planets

But even many Christians think, ‘God must have created life elsewhere, otherwise this enormous universe would be an awful waste of space.’ In my experience, this seems to be the major underlying reason why people think that there must be other life 'out there'. However, our thinking should be based on what God said He did (the Bible), and not what we think He would, should or might have done.

Firstly, since God is the one who made the universe, it can scarcely be ‘big’ to Him. Humans struggle with its vastness because our comprehension is limited to the created time/space dimensions within which we exist, and it is mind-bending to try and comprehend anything beyond our dimensional existence. Size is only relative to us as inhabitants of this universe. And size and time are related somewhat. Because the universe is big to us we consider how long it would take us to travel across it, for example. But, time itself began with the creation of the physical universe, so how can we comprehend what eternity is, or might be? What was ‘before’ the universe? Similarly, how do we imagine how ‘big’ God is? We cannot use a tape measure that is made of the very atoms He made to measure Him. One example of this might be if you were asked to build a small house and you did. Now you are asked to build a large house. In our dimensions, for you to build the larger house it would require more effort and take more time. So, is it harder, or does it take longer for God to build a big universe compared to a smaller one (according to our perspective on what constitutes large or small of course)? Of course not, because He isn't bound by time and space (which He created). Isaiah 40:28 says; ‘… the everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth, does not grow weak nor weary …’.

We are impressed that God made billions of galaxies with billions of stars in them and suitably so, because that is one of the reasons for making them. But as mentioned, size is not an issue for God. Stars are relatively simple structures as they are just great big balls of gas. It would take more ‘creative input’, in that sense, for Jesus’ miracle of feeding the five thousand than for the creation of countless quasars (there is immense genetic complexity in the structure of even a dead fish).