For the religious - a question

The Cysko Kid

@oldbrownsfan said:

What does the Bible say about the number of stars? Jeremiah writes: As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, neither the sand of the sea measured: so will I multiply the seed of David my servant Jeremiah 33:22. At that time, when men of learning were convinced that there were only about 3,000 stars, Jeremiah wrote that nobody would be able to count the stars.

The bible does take into account the vastness of the universe. There is no evidence in science or the Bible that there is life elsewhere. We are His handiwork.

There's life elsewhere.

gftChris

@oldbrownsfan said:

What does the Bible say about the number of stars? Jeremiah writes: ‘As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, neither the sand of the sea measured: so will I multiply the seed of David my servant’ Jeremiah 33:22. At that time, when men of learning were convinced that there were only about 3,000 stars, Jeremiah wrote that nobody would be able to count the stars.

The bible does take into account the vastness of the universe. There is no evidence in science or the Bible that there is life elsewhere. We are His handiwork.

No evidence yet. The question was based on the supposition that, as anticipated by NASA, evidence of some form of life is found. How would you reconcile your beliefs as expressed above with that news?

OldBrownsFan

The Bible and ETs

It is often asked, ‘Just because the Bible teaches about God creating intelligent life only on Earth, why couldn’t He have done so elsewhere?’ After all, Scripture does not discuss everything, e.g. motorcars. However, the biblical objection to ET is not merely an argument from silence. Motor cars, for example, are not a salvation issue, but we believe that sentient,intelligent, moral-decision-capable beings is, because it would undermine the authority of Scripture. In short, understanding the big picture of the Bible/gospel message allows us to conclude clearly that the reason the Bible doesn’t mention extraterrestrials (ETs) is that there aren’t any.¹ Surely, if the earth were to be favoured with a visitation by real extraterrestrials from a galaxy far, far away, then one would reasonably expect that the Bible, and God in His sovereignty and foreknowledge, to mention such a momentous occasion, because it would clearly redefine man's place in the universe.

The Bible indicates that the whole creation groans and travails under the weight of sin (Romans 8:18–22). The effect of the Curse following Adam’s Fall was universal.² Otherwise what would be the point of God destroying this whole creation to make way for a new heavens and Earth—2 Peter 3:13, Revelation 21:1 ff? Therefore, any ETs living elsewhere would have been (unjustly) affected by the Adamic Curse through no fault of their own—they would not have inherited Adam’s sin nature.
When Christ (God) appeared in the flesh, He came to Earth not only to redeem mankind but eventually the whole creation back to Himself (Romans 8:21, Colossians 1:20). However, Christ’s atoning death at Calvary cannot save these hypothetical ETs, because one needs to be a physical descendant of Adam for Christ to be our ‘kinsman-redeemer’ (Isaiah 59:20). Jesus was called ‘the last Adam’ because there was a real first man, Adam (1 Corinthians 15:22,45)—not a first Vulcan, Klingon etc. This is so a sinless human Substitute takes on the punishment all humans deserve for sin (Isaiah 53:6,10; Matthew 20:28; 1 John 2:2, 4:10), with no need to atone for any (non-existent) sin of his own (Hebrews 7:27).
Since this would mean that any ETs would be lost for eternity when this present creation is destroyed in a fervent heat (2 Peter 3:10, 12), some have wondered whether Christ’s sacrifice might be repeated elsewhere for other beings. However, Christ died once for all (Romans 6:10, 1 Peter 3:18) on the earth. He is not going to be crucified and resurrected again on other planets (Hebrews 9:26). This is confirmed by the fact that the redeemed (earthly) church is known as Christ’s bride (Ephesians 5:22–33; Revelation 19:7–9) in a marriage that will last for eternity.³ Christ is not going to be a polygamist with many other brides from other planets.
The Bible makes no provision for God to redeem any other species, any more than to redeem fallen angels (Hebrews 2:16).

gftChris

So you're saying that if there's life elsewhere, the bible is invalidated? I suspect there might be some who disagree with you.

Also, answering a hypothetical by saying the hypothetical wouldn't happen is just poor form.

FairHooker11

I know nobody asked but -

Id rate the "Bible Commentary" used by OBFan as accurate - but it doesnt fit your OP

NASA said life at the molecular level? microbes or something?

Didnt say ETs....

but if you want to talk angelic realm, then well you have something - created beings apart from humans.

OldBrownsFan

@fairhooker11 said:

I know nobody asked but -

Id rate the "Bible Commentary" used by OBFan as accurate - but it doesnt fit your OP

NASA said life at the molecular level? microbes or something?

Didnt say ETs....

but if you want to talk angelic realm, then well you have something - created beings apart from humans.

ET's would invalidate the bible which is why (in bad form) I said that hypothetical would never happen. As for some kind of microbes that would not affect my beliefs.

DieHardBrownsFan

I see no reason why you couldn't believe in the Bible and believe that there are other planets with intelligent life.

OldBrownsFan

Is the Bible falsifiable? And would a real live ET do it?

http://creation.com/is-the-bible-falsifiable

Is the Bible falsifiable? And would a real live ET do it?

(Round 2)
Further response by Gary Bates and Jonathan Sarfati

http://creation.com/is-the-bible-falsifiable-and-would-a-real-live-et-do-it

These are a couple of the commentaries I looked at and agree with.

Westside Steve

Would it falsify the Bible (or your faith) if it turned out Mary was not a virgin?

WSS

DieHardBrownsFan

@oldbrownsfan said:

Is the Bible falsifiable? And would a real live ET do it?

http://creation.com/is-the-bible-falsifiable

Is the Bible falsifiable? And would a real live ET do it?
(Round 2)
Further response by Gary Bates and Jonathan Sarfati

http://creation.com/is-the-bible-falsifiable-and-would-a-real-live-et-do-it

These are a couple of the commentaries I looked at and agree with.

Not sure who those people are, but I don't agree with them.

OldBrownsFan

@westside-steve said:

Would it falsify the Bible (or your faith) if it turned out Mary was not a virgin?

WSS

It would falsify the bible.

http://calvarychapel.com/resources/article/view/why-the-virgin-birth-is-essential-to-christianity/

MLD Woody

The bible hasn't yet been falsified? You have a literal interpretation of it and you see nothing there stopping you?

I would imagine, I'd we did find life somewhere else, religious groups will continue doing mental gymnastics to validate their holy book. Pages will be edited, verses will be reinterpreted or more loosely interpreted. It would be something I'd guess we've seen before.

FairHooker11

@oldbrownsfan said:

ET's would invalidate the bible which is why (in bad form) I said that hypothetical would never happen. As for some kind of microbes that would not affect my beliefs.

thanks -I took a look at the links you gave and can see your point.

and the bible can only be interpreted as literal to a born again spirit filled believer.

but as a casual observer once myself, - there is hope still today,grace and mercy to forgive my sins and yours- but time is running short IMO -dont wait

as we can all see the spirit of anti-christ is very prevalent today, woodys (and like minded people) opinions proves that,

to the mods: does this get me canned / banned from the browns board? I really spend too much time here....

OldBrownsFan

@fairhooker11 said:

thanks -I took a look at the links you gave and can see your point.

and the bible can only be interpreted as literal to a born again spirit filled believer.

but as a casual observer once myself, - there is hope still today,grace and mercy to forgive my sins and yours- but time is running short IMO -dont wait

as we can all see the spirit of anti-christ is very prevalent today, woodys (and like minded people) opinions proves that,

to the mods: does this get me canned / banned from the browns board? I really spend too much time here....

I think we are on topic with what Chris posted. He wanted a Christian perspective on possible life form in outer space. There are some huge problems with what the bible says and life on other planets. I think the big thing that people can't get past is how large the universe is and there just has to be other life out there with the universe being so enormous. How can little earth be so important in such a large universe? http://creation.com/did-god-create-life-on-other-planets

But even many Christians think, ‘God must have created life elsewhere, otherwise this enormous universe would be an awful waste of space.’ In my experience, this seems to be the major underlying reason why people think that there must be other life 'out there'. However, our thinking should be based on what God said He did (the Bible), and not what we think He would, should or might have done.

Firstly, since God is the one who made the universe, it can scarcely be ‘big’ to Him. Humans struggle with its vastness because our comprehension is limited to the created time/space dimensions within which we exist, and it is mind-bending to try and comprehend anything beyond our dimensional existence. Size is only relative to us as inhabitants of this universe. And size and time are related somewhat. Because the universe is big to us we consider how long it would take us to travel across it, for example. But, time itself began with the creation of the physical universe, so how can we comprehend what eternity is, or might be? What was ‘before’ the universe? Similarly, how do we imagine how ‘big’ God is? We cannot use a tape measure that is made of the very atoms He made to measure Him. One example of this might be if you were asked to build a small house and you did. Now you are asked to build a large house. In our dimensions, for you to build the larger house it would require more effort and take more time. So, is it harder, or does it take longer for God to build a big universe compared to a smaller one (according to our perspective on what constitutes large or small of course)? Of course not, because He isn't bound by time and space (which He created). Isaiah 40:28 says; ‘… the everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth, does not grow weak nor weary …’.

We are impressed that God made billions of galaxies with billions of stars in them and suitably so, because that is one of the reasons for making them. But as mentioned, size is not an issue for God. Stars are relatively simple structures as they are just great big balls of gas. It would take more ‘creative input’, in that sense, for Jesus’ miracle of feeding the five thousand than for the creation of countless quasars (there is immense genetic complexity in the structure of even a dead fish).

MLD Woody

No, I don't think it gets you banned. I would need to care at all about the "insult". You're basically saying a fictional character's spirit is influencing me? I find that hilarious, lol.

Yes, I am a pawn in the plan of the anti-Christ. Knowledge, reason, fact, science... the Devil!

Look at the reasoning from OBF. "ETs would invalidate the Bible. Nothing can invalidate the Bible. Therefore we'll never find ETs.".... really? Really? That is basically the exact reason I am not a fan of religion.

MLD Woody

OBF, are you a "young Earth creationist"?

OldBrownsFan

@mld-woody said:
OBF, are you a "young Earth creationist"?

Woody I am a believer and you are not. I usually don't get bogged down on discussions like this as they are futile. You may not agree with my view that ET's would invalidate the bible but how familiar are you with the teachings of the bible?

MLD Woody

@oldbrownsfan said:

Woody I am a believer and you are not. I usually don't get bogged down on discussions like this as they are futile. You may not agree with my view that ET's would invalidate the bible but how familiar are you with the teachings of the bible?

That didn't answer my question.

I was raised Catholic and got up to my First Communion. Then my family went to church less and less and I was lucky enough to not have to worry about it any more.

I wasn't commenting on your belief that ETs would invalidate the Bible. I think common sense invalidates the Bible. I was commenting on your reasoning for why we won't find intelligent life elsewhere. Basically saying it would go against the Bible, and nothing can go against the Bible, so therefore it won't happen. THAT is ridiculous logic and exactly why I am not a fan of religion.

OldBrownsFan

I can only tell you why you scoff at believers and have the attitude you do. But I am using a book you don't believe in so it is kind of hopeless isn't it?

NIV 1 Cor.2:14
The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.

MLD Woody

and I can believe Hogwarts is a real place and Harry Potter is a real person. Knowledge, facts, science, etc can show they aren't though, and that is the point.

Why do I scoff at believers? I am curious what you think. Do you also think it is because the anti-Christ has possessed me or something? (lol).

Yes, there are good lessons to live by in the Bible. No one can disagree with that, but I am talking about a literal interpretation (which you and others seem to be as well). This is where I say common sense, knowledge, facts, etc can disprove a literal interpretation.

Which brings me back to my original question, are you a "young Earth creationist"?