Camp Goff
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Gruden (or Jaws?) had an interesting take on Cardale today...
"Cardale Jones is not a pro prospect. He is a pro project."
As a HC, Gruden seemed best at borrowing veteran QBs like Rich Gannon and Brad Johnson rather than drafting/training young inexperienced QBs. GB was good at training young QBs when he was there; but that also included other offensive minded coaches like Andy Reid, Mike Holmgren, and Steve Marriucci.
I've never been a big fan of Jaws especially when he couldn't understand how Joe Thomas continues to make the Pro Bowl. My guess is things really changed the minute he stopped having Dick Vermeil around to translate NFL film for him and give him the week long wtf's in practice. Vermeil prolly liked him because he felt needed but at the expense of burnout from too many hours to the extreme of frequent sleeping at the office. Ryan had the mentality if a QB needed that much attention - he was replaceable. Today, I'd rather listen to Greg Cosell summarize film than the over-caffeinated Jaws.
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Those are passing red zone numbers. If you added in running, it'd make Wentz even higher above the rest in that categoryNice article... curious about the scale development and the relative weighting (or lack thereof) for the categories.
Also feel there's a discountable element of collegiate QB's running that's not considered. An element that shows in 3rd Down and Red zone passing stats that won't translate to the NFL... not fully anyway.
Those are passing red zone numbers. If you added in running, it'd make Wentz even higher above the rest in that category
Understood... poorly stated my point...
As you just confirmed, the analysis was of QB passing effectiveness, not overall effectiveness.
Running QBs create redzone pressure at the collegiate level that does not fully translate to the NFL because they don't run as much at the Pro level. By pulling up LBs and DBs their college running opens up passes that won't be there at the next level. Thus their running inflates their collegiate passing numbers. So I would maintain running QBs redzone passing should be discounted.
How to determine the "discount"? Possibly as simply as game notes of such occurrences... The same could apply to 3rd down situations.
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One other Mayock musing from today:
This draft's Goff/ Wentz pair will end up as good or better than 2015's Wilson/ Mariota.
Here's an article with more on this...
Mayock: Goff-Wentz as good, maybe better than Winston-Mariota
By Dan Parr, College Football 24/7 Editor, Published: March 18, 2016 at 02:59 p.m
NFL Media draft expert Mike Mayock dropped a bit of a bombshell in his analysis during NFL Network's coverage of Cal QB Jared Goff's pro day on Friday.
Mayock said during a discussion with his fellow analysts that he considers the consensus top two QBs in this year's draft, Goff and North Dakota State's Carson Wentz, to be just as good and maybe even better than the top two QBs in last year's draft, Marcus Mariota and Jameis Winston.
"The statement I'm going to make to you guys, and you can tell me whether you agree or not, is I'm at the point now with both Wentz and Goff where I think they're every bit as good, if not better, than Winston and Mariota from a year ago as prospects," Mayock said.
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You have this strange urge to divide people that I really don't understand. Have said from day 1 that I like and would appreciate both of these quarterbacks, but I prefer Wentz and graded him slightly higher. I don't doubt that Jared Goff is a good prospect.
If I saw them as close, then I would not try to draw out distinctions...
I do not see them as close.
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So how irate are you guys going to be when Analytics boy decides to pick somebody in the third or fourth round?
WSS
www.westsidesteve.com www.myspace.com/westsidestevemusic www.cdbaby.com/artist/westsidestevesimmons -
So how irate are you guys going to be when Analytics boy decides to pick somebody in the third or fourth round?
WSS
As the second QB taken, after we take one at #2? Not irate whatsoever.So how irate are you guys going to be when Analytics boy decides to pick somebody in the third or fourth round?
WSS
Analytics points to taking a QB earlier rather than later.
More teams have experienced more SUSTAINED success with first round QB's than QB's taken in any of the other six rounds.
The common argument is "oh yeah, look at Tampa, or Baltimore, or New England". New England is really the lone exception, as both Tampa and Baltimore crashed essentially immediately after their Super Bowl runs.
You don't win for long in the NFL without a QB, period. The Browns have taken the top QB exactly once since the return, and they've been the worst team in the NFL over the same span. "Analytics" (read: common sense) points to us taking a QB at #2.
Everyone else using the term "analytics" to say we're not going to spend picks on valuable, highly ranked players in the draft fundamentally doesn't understand what that word means. We're not "moneyballing" the league, we're just not being fucking stupid and trying to bargain basement shop for a QB.
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Well maybe you guys have a better handle on what the fuck analytics might possibly mean.
But in case I wasn't clear I'm talking about foregoing a quarterback until the third or fourth round where coach Jackson sees one he could coach up to be the next Andy Dalton
WSS
www.westsidesteve.com www.myspace.com/westsidestevemusic www.cdbaby.com/artist/westsidestevesimmons -
I had a couple (real) Cubans in Mexico (I know they were real based on my research, almost everybody sells fakes). I honestly can't tell the difference between a Cuban and any other cigar - I smoked one on the beach though which was nice.
I had a couple (real) Cubans in Mexico (I know they were real based on my research, almost everybody sells fakes). I honestly can't tell the difference between a Cuban and any other cigar - I smoked one on the beach though which was nice.
Cuban cigars are over rated. All the quality producers hit the road after Castro took over. (If they could)- Dominican Republic. Cuban cigars tend to have a very robust flavor profile- and that's not my cup or tea (or smoke). Give me a nice mild Macanudo. Cigars consist of filler, binder and wrapper. Bet you didn't know the very best cigar wrappers are grown right here in the USA- Connecticut shade tobacco.
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Well maybe you guys have a better handle on what the fuck analytics might possibly mean.
But in case I wasn't clear I'm talking about foregoing a quarterback until the third or fourth round where coach Jackson sees one he could coach up to be the next Andy Dalton
WSS
Well maybe you guys have a better handle on what the fuck analytics might possibly mean.
But in case I wasn't clear I'm talking about foregoing a quarterback until the third or fourth round where coach Jackson sees one he could coach up to be the next Andy Dalton
WSS
Andy Dalton was pick #35, so it would make more sense we took a guy around #32 to do that.
That means Cook or Hackenberg. I was high on Cook to start the season but drastically cooled when he didn't show any sort of progression. He's as good today as he was two years ago, in my eyes.
I'm awesome, and I fuck dolphins. Ghoolie 12/2/2012: I have absolutely no skills, training or pride -
So how irate are you guys going to be when Analytics boy decides to pick somebody in the third or fourth round?
WSS
So how irate are you guys going to be when Analytics boy decides to pick somebody in the third or fourth round?
Irate? Mildly at best as I'll be more stunned, then gradually move to stupefied...
Everyone else using the term "analytics" to say we're not going to spend picks on valuable, highly ranked players in the draft fundamentally doesn't understand what that word means. We're not "moneyballing" the league, we're just not being fucking stupid and trying to bargain basement shop for a QB.
Even Moneyball teams spend on pitchers... well, other than the Indians they do...
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I will be OK with it so long as Pittsburgh does not end up with Wentz or Goff like the year we picked Wimbley and they ended up with Rothlesburger. If I have to go through another decade of Pittsburgh domination while we have another project bust taken high I am going to go crazy.
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Using stats isn't the best for this type of discussion, but UGH, OK we can do that. Justin is a very good friend of mine and put a ton of work into this, please give it a read (don't just read the charts).
http://draftbreakdown.com/2016-nfl-draft-breaking-down-situational-quarterback-performance/
Wentz has advantages in a few of the categories, not just above Goff, but above the rest of this QB class.
Using stats isn't the best for this type of discussion, but UGH, OK we can do that. Justin is a very good friend of mine and put a ton of work into this, please give it a read (don't just read the charts).
http://draftbreakdown.com/2016-nfl-draft-breaking-down-situational-quarterback-performance/
Wentz has advantages in a few of the categories, not just above Goff, but above the rest of this QB class.
Thanks for sharing that - great read Mike!
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Well maybe you guys have a better handle on what the fuck analytics might possibly mean.
But in case I wasn't clear I'm talking about foregoing a quarterback until the third or fourth round where coach Jackson sees one he could coach up to be the next Andy Dalton
WSS
Andy Dalton was pick #35, so it would make more sense we took a guy around #32 to do that.
That means Cook or Hackenberg. I was high on Cook to start the season but drastically cooled when he didn't show any sort of progression. He's as good today as he was two years ago, in my eyes.
Andy Dalton was pick #35, so it would make more sense we took a guy around #32 to do that.
That means Cook or Hackenberg. I was high on Cook to start the season but drastically cooled when he didn't show any sort of progression. He's as good today as he was two years ago, in my eyes.
Devil's advocate. It could also mean they're willing to project better football ahead from different QBs slotted later. While I agree with your point about Cook - it's important to understand he wasn't anywhere near 100% when MSU squeaked by Iowa and I'm guessing the same held true the next time he got center stage vrs Bama. I will say I don't remember seeing Michigan State having a better 3 year run than I've seen the last 3 years with Cook starting there. That could all very well be just a coincidence. Marino didn't have a very good last season at Pitt so he dropped all the way down to Don Shula's draft slot somewhere around #26 overall with quite a few QBs drafted ahead the HOF QB. Someone like Farmer wouldn't be smart enough to research more than 1 extract or understand what's caused a drop-off.
Andy Dalton reminds us that a guy learning from Hue can get his arm stronger as evidenced in his 2015 season. Even before that, it wasn't like he was a bad regular season QB while Cincy has frequented playoffs since he has arrived. Yes, I know they haven't won a post season game yet but you gotta make the playoffs to have a shot at winning a playoff game. He's leading the horse to water but now the horse needs to be thirsty when it gets there. It almost was with a backup QB in 2015 but 1 late fumble and lost composure shortly thereafter reminded us nobody's Burfict.
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Gruden (or Jaws?) had an interesting take on Cardale today...
"Cardale Jones is not a pro prospect. He is a pro project."
OK, how do you interpret that?
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So how irate are you guys going to be when Analytics boy decides to pick somebody in the third or fourth round?
WSS
So how irate are you guys going to be when Analytics boy decides to pick somebody in the third or fourth round?
WSS
And no QB in the first?
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I will be OK with it so long as Pittsburgh does not end up with Wentz or Goff like the year we picked Wimbley and they ended up with Rothlesburger. If I have to go through another decade of Pittsburgh domination while we have another project bust taken high I am going to go crazy.
I will be OK with it so long as Pittsburgh does not end up with Wentz or Goff like the year we picked Wimbley and they ended up with Rothlesburger. If I have to go through another decade of Pittsburgh domination while we have another project bust taken high I am going to go crazy.
Ah, No. The year the Steelers took BR was the year we took K2 in the draft. Wimbley was later.
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If we don't take a QB @ #2, Cook might be worth a look in a later round. He wins.
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If we don't take a QB @ #2, Cook might be worth a look in a later round. He wins.
If we don't take a QB @ #2, Cook might be worth a look in a later round. He wins.
So did Colt McCoy. College stats mean shit all.
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If we don't take a QB @ #2, Cook might be worth a look in a later round. He wins.
If we don't take a QB @ #2, Cook might be worth a look in a later round. He wins.
No thanks on Cook. Would rather take one of the project guys that at least seem like they want to be leaders (Jones/Prescott/Hogan).
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