Why we need a QB in Top 5
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I never said anything EVER about him getting physically hurt ... you just took the longevity comment and applied it to injury. There are plenty of other ways to have a shortened career besides physical injury.
I think Gip nailed it. the other option is- if you're confident he's got great potential, then he'll show it when he's on the Browns. If he's a bum- he'll be a bum anywhere.
Mitch isn't on LeBron's level but is basically Aaron Rodgers, quite possibly the most talented QB in the league.
And you wonder why people keep calling you homers.....
DeShone Kizer is from Ohio too- you don't see me and Gip giving him any love do you? I wouldn't care if Mitch was from Alaska or Mars for that matter, right now he's the top rated QB prospect. Homers? I think not. There's a difference discussing similarities, as opposed to saying he is on that level. Yeah- it's dangerous to fall in love with a prospect, and I plead guilty to that. But other than Andrew Luck, there isn't any qb potentially coming out in the last 10 years that I've been as high on as Trubisky.
I'll give you another example. Deshawn Watson has a lot of traits in common with RG III. It's why I don't like him. He's going to have to play like Superman against Alabama to jump Mitch.
Its pretty simple, if you remember what DePodesta said earlier this year. They passed on Wentz because they thought he wasn't a potential top 15 qb. If they think Mitch is- do you think they're going to pass this time around, considering how much flack they took for that one? Considering the Browns had the whole crew at the Sun Bowl, I'd have to say they're at least seriously interested.
Its pretty simple, if you remember what DePodesta said earlier this year. They passed on Wentz because they thought he wasn't a potential top 15 qb. If they think Mitch is- do you think they're going to pass this time around, considering how much flack they took for that one?
No telling yet if they were right to pass on Wentz or not. In the games I watched (and I sit on my ass watching every game every sunday except when I'm in Cleveland) I wasn't overly impressed by Wentz. He rarely does much more other than throw it 5 yards at a time and has been noted by NFL insiders that he's late and high on his passes over the middle. Obviously that can change. Marriotta didn't light the world on fire his rookie year either but he certainly made a big jump this year before getting hurt.
If they think he's the QB of the future, then he has to be taken #1 overall despite my preference to pick 2 defensive studs in the first round.
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Breaking it down further:
2016: QBs taken #1 and #2...Goff/Wentz
2015: QBs taken #1 and #2...Winston/Mariota
2014: QB taken #3...Bortles
2013: none taken top 5
2012: QBs taken #1 and #2 Luck/Griffin
2011: QB taken #1 Newton
2010: QB taken #1 Bradford
2009: QB taken #1 and #5 Stafford/Sanchez
2008: QB taken #3 Matt Ryan
2007: QB taken #1: Russell
I think the "hit vs. bust" rate on QBs taken Top 5 over these last 10 years seems quite a bit over 50%. Russell and Sanchez may be only certified busts (though Sanchez did take his team to two AFC title games...for what that's worth)
Breaking it down further:
2016: QBs taken #1 and #2...Goff/Wentz
2015: QBs taken #1 and #2...Winston/Mariota
2014: QB taken #3...Bortles
2013: none taken top 5
2012: QBs taken #1 and #2 Luck/Griffin
2011: QB taken #1 Newton
2010: QB taken #1 Bradford
2009: QB taken #1 and #5 Stafford/Sanchez
2008: QB taken #3 Matt Ryan
2007: QB taken #1: Russell
I think the "hit vs. bust" rate on QBs taken Top 5 over these last 10 years seems quite a bit over 50%. Russell and Sanchez may be only certified busts (though Sanchez did take his team to two AFC title games...for what that's worth)
I wouldn't even count the most recent drafts for hits and missed, too early to tell. Looking through it 2007 - 2014 I have it 4-1-4 with Bortles being the tie.
Ruining threads since 1897. -
Breaking it down further:
2016: QBs taken #1 and #2...Goff/Wentz
2015: QBs taken #1 and #2...Winston/Mariota
2014: QB taken #3...Bortles
2013: none taken top 5
2012: QBs taken #1 and #2 Luck/Griffin
2011: QB taken #1 Newton
2010: QB taken #1 Bradford
2009: QB taken #1 and #5 Stafford/Sanchez
2008: QB taken #3 Matt Ryan
2007: QB taken #1: Russell
I think the "hit vs. bust" rate on QBs taken Top 5 over these last 10 years seems quite a bit over 50%. Russell and Sanchez may be only certified busts (though Sanchez did take his team to two AFC title games...for what that's worth)
I wouldn't even count the most recent drafts for hits and missed, too early to tell. Looking through it 2007 - 2014 I have it 4-1-4 with Bortles being the tie.
I wouldn't even count the most recent drafts for hits and missed, too early to tell. Looking through it 2007 - 2014 I have it 4-1-4 with Bortles being the tie.
I'm 3-2-4 with bortles not a tie. Perspective is funny.
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Absolutely, ghoolie. We need to invest in O-linemen and make sure that the QB is protected and we can have a solid run game.
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And what if we take Triblowski #1 overall and he turns out to be David Carr? You're still in QB hell and you wasted a chance to get a defensive monster because you over valued a QB because we need one. There isn't a QB worth the #1 overall pick. Figure out the guy on defense who will be a stud and take him. Certailny looks to me like Bosa is better than both QB's taken at ahead of him.
and if garrett turns out to be another courtney brown, where are we then?
and if garrett turns out to be another courtney brown, where are we then?
Hard to predict injury.
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You are a glue head with virtually every one of those statements.
Right....actual facts are not something you have any kind of ability to understand.
The Steelers are one the most talent laden teams in the NFL.
Only if you take those 3-4 players. Otherwise their talent level is pedestrian. If they were so talented besides those guys, ALL that talent would have run over the "Very little talented Browns". Pretty much the opposite happened.
Who's to say the playing for the Browns didn't ruin the QB's?
I say so.....anyone who has seen them play says so. You think they were all so good? Why don't you go ahead an bench BR in favor of Brandon Weeden or Colt McCoy or Derek Anderson or Johnny Manziel or any of those guys. You think they are so good...but I venture you would not went them as the starting QB of your team.
There is VERY little talent on the Browns, AT ANY POSITION,
And yet, without fuckup after fuckup they would have been in position to hammer the Steelers. You prove my point. Steelers have about as little talent as the Browns without those 3-4 guys. (Who, yes, indeed do make a great deal of difference)
and the few key players which are talented are on their way to retirement.
Browns players on way to retirement? Who are you talking about?
Only guy I know who would be retiring is Josh McCown....hardly a key player.
Joe Thomas could play another 7-8 years. Joe Haden probably 3-4 more...unless injuries do him in.
The most key player closest to retirement on either team is your most key player: BR.
When a guy like Pryor stands out, it's not because he is great or even good, it's because he looks head and shoulders better than the void around him.
Or, maybe he is actually pretty good. From what I see, the Steelers would take him in a heartbeat and he would be your top notch 2d receiver.
Could you imagine BR throwing to him? If you say that you wouldn't want that, you would be lying to yourself.
The Steelers are one the most talent laden teams in the NFL.
Only if you take those 3-4 players. Otherwise their talent level is pedestrian. If they were so talented besides those guys, ALL that talent would have run over the "Very little talented Browns". Pretty much the opposite happened.
One meaningless game doesn't do your argument justice.
Pittsburgh is #12 in defense, Browns #31
http://www.espn.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/total/position/defense
You could say many teams that without their top 3 or four stars that they are "pedestrian" or as good as the browns...which of course would also be ridiculous.
What names in New England stand out besides Brady, Gronk and maybe Blount?
In Dallas...Dak, Elliot, and Bryant...but you cant exclude their offensive line,.... nor Pittsburghs nor New Englands.
http://www.steelersdepot.com/2016/12/steelers-offensive-line-chance-set-franchise-record-sunday/
The Steelers without Ben, Brown, and Bell would still win a lot of games, therefore would still be better than the browns, not equal to them.
Williams is still a damn good running back, the Steelers have an arsenal of quality wide recievers and tight ends all better than Coleman. Landry Jones would be the weakest link, but the dude hardly plays. Given time I believe he would improve.
He did a hell of a job in the second half vs. the Browns.
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You could say many teams that without their top 3 or four stars that they are "pedestrian" or as good as the browns...which of course would also be ridiculous.
Browns without their best 3-4 players...oh dear
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You could say many teams that without their top 3 or four stars that they are "pedestrian" or as good as the browns...which of course would also be ridiculous.
Browns without their best 3-4 players...oh dear
Browns without their best 3-4 players...oh dear
So who were our best players in 2016? I'd say:
1. Thomas
2. Jamie Collins for his half season. Guy is a beast
3. Crow. 4.9 yards per carry, not his fault they didn't give him the rock more..
4. Christian Kirksey ... he's turned into a heck of a player ... Farmer nailed one!
Honorable mention: I know it is cool to hate him, but I thought Joe Haden played well when healthy, Jamar Taylor turned into a nice free agent find. Danny Shelton is becoming the player we hoped for. Pryor makes a lot of mistakes, but makes up for it with his gifts, and the desire is there too, and the production can't be denied. The long snapper was tits.
There is 9 football players. The other 44 gotta get better or get replaced. Some look real promising, like Ogbah, but we need to get beyond promising and to production next year. Other good players, like Bitonio need to stay healthy to make this list.
Zombo
--Don't think I would have had a QB in my Top 30
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Yup, I do too Gip. We don't need the GOAT at qb, but having someone on Rodger's level would be refreshing for a change. If he needs time to sit and learn, we give him that time. You don't start your #1 overall pick until you think he's ready.
If you can assure me that he's the next Aaron Rodgers then I'm all in. Draft him #1 overall and give him 10% ownership in the team as well. From what I've seen and what we also have as a history of guys with 1 year starting in college and how that transfers to a lack of NFL success, there are a lot of red flags about this kid. Besides all that, unless I've missed something, he hasn't even said he's coming out yet.
If you can assure me that he's the next Aaron Rodgers then I'm all in. Draft him #1 overall and give him 10% ownership in the team as well. From what I've seen and what we also have as a history of guys with 1 year starting in college and how that transfers to a lack of NFL success, there are a lot of red flags about this kid. Besides all that, unless I've missed something, he hasn't even said he's coming out yet.
Well, of course, if he decides not to come out, then all bets are off.
While Stan may be absolutely right....that the kid could benefit from another year in school.....that doesn't always work out.
And if you are slated to be a Top 5 pick....and MT is that....you jump.
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Breaking it down further:
2016: QBs taken #1 and #2...Goff/Wentz
2015: QBs taken #1 and #2...Winston/Mariota
2014: QB taken #3...Bortles
2013: none taken top 5
2012: QBs taken #1 and #2 Luck/Griffin
2011: QB taken #1 Newton
2010: QB taken #1 Bradford
2009: QB taken #1 and #5 Stafford/Sanchez
2008: QB taken #3 Matt Ryan
2007: QB taken #1: Russell
I think the "hit vs. bust" rate on QBs taken Top 5 over these last 10 years seems quite a bit over 50%. Russell and Sanchez may be only certified busts (though Sanchez did take his team to two AFC title games...for what that's worth)
I wouldn't even count the most recent drafts for hits and missed, too early to tell. Looking through it 2007 - 2014 I have it 4-1-4 with Bortles being the tie.
I wouldn't even count the most recent drafts for hits and missed, too early to tell. Looking through it 2007 - 2014 I have it 4-1-4 with Bortles being the tie.
Break that down a bit more if you would. And I do think that it seems safe to conclude that both Winston and Mariota appear on their way to being very good NFL QBs. But sure, there is time for them to fall flat. After RGs and Sanchez's first years you would have said they on their way to being very good. And, Yes, way to early on Goff/Wentz.
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@ghoolie said:
I don't think I accurately made my point, Gip,
I am not saying we ignore the QB position, I am saying we HAVE ignored it. We have ignored it by not going after the very top prospects, save Couch, and we have ignored it by not putting the QBs we have taken into a more QB friendly situation.
Yes, very fair point.
You simply cannot start out with #2 and #32, and come away with Coleman.
We got Ogbah at 32. Jury still out on both obviously.
As I pointed out, had the FO really positioned themselves to hold on to Gordon and Pryor, then the addition of Coleman was okay because THAT 3 WR tandem would indeed be a QB friendly move. Likewise, how the hell can a QB succeed when players continue to drop passes, fumble pick 6s at the goal line, make stupid penalties and miss tackles?????
This past Sunday it almost seemed like the Browns were jinxed that way.
I have always maintained the the QB is the main focus of a team. Without a great QB there is no winning. My point is that the QB is not currently the priority with the Browns. Understand my point, simply using the #1 pick on a top QB in itself is not an example of being committed to filling this hole. What if the next QB doesn't work out..................what is left for the next try to step in to? That's what the Browns lack.
I still think you go for it. What happens if it doesn't work out.....try try again.
I am sorry but how the fuck can anyone look at this team and with any credibility say that hue created a better machine for the next guy to step into.
Go ahead, pick a great QB....then put him into this shit. Our 2016 draft was a bust. Any time the NFL displays great rookie performances way better than your rookie pick, your draft is a failure. You cannot close the distance on your competitors when their 1st round picks make yours look like shit.
Well, what are we/the Browns supposed to do? Give up.....trade every first round pick they have for a pack of 3rd rounders. That won't work.
They just gotta keep pluggin' away. What else can they do?
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Wel, this isn't basketball. MT isn't a generational player. So other than that, fine analogy....
Mitchy has one year starting experience. One...1...
I don't know how else to classify this other than blind homerism...Kids got tools, sure. Has he learned to use them enough to pass on a blue chip talent elsewhere. No imo
You classify it as a person having an instinct about talent. That is what is evident.
And what blue chip talent is out there? I don't see any talent that is any more blue chip than he is.
You classify it as a person having an instinct about talent. That is what is evident.
lol... thanks for that. Needed a laugh...
@ghoolie said:
I don't think I accurately made my point, Gip,
I am not saying we ignore the QB position, I am saying we HAVE ignored it. We have ignored it by not going after the very top prospects, save Couch, and we have ignored it by not putting the QBs we have taken into a more QB friendly situation.
You simply cannot start out with #2 and #32, and come away with Coleman.
Without a great QB there is no winning. My point is that the QB is not currently the priority with the Browns. Understand my point, simply using the #1 pick on a top QB in itself is not an example of being committed to filling this hole. What if the next QB doesn't work out..................what is left for the next try to step in to? That's what the Browns lack.I am sorry but how the fuck can anyone look at this team and with any credibility say that hue created a better machine for the next guy to step into.
For a clarification that was very confusing. Great teams do win without "great QBs", so why dilute your valid points with such a demonstrably wrong, absolute statement? Great teams don't win with "bad QBs"... and bad teams don't win even with good ones.
I've decried past drafts bypassing great talent, seemingly out of sheer ignorance, nearly as much as you have, yet I did not decry this last draft because I got what they were doing... or at least I think I did/do. This draft will be telling... this off-season will be telling.
And Hue has prepared the ground for building. How many other HCs have we had that could hold a team together thru 1 and 15? Give the man some credit for that. Not a lot? Fine... but some.
I'm 3-2-4 with bortles not a tie. Perspective is funny.
2-3-4 here... with Ryan and Luck as my "2", and only because "Matty Ice" finally won me over this year.
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Breaking it down further:
2016: QBs taken #1 and #2...Goff/Wentz
2015: QBs taken #1 and #2...Winston/Mariota
2014: QB taken #3...Bortles
2013: none taken top 5
2012: QBs taken #1 and #2 Luck/Griffin
2011: QB taken #1 Newton
2010: QB taken #1 Bradford
2009: QB taken #1 and #5 Stafford/Sanchez
2008: QB taken #3 Matt Ryan
2007: QB taken #1: Russell
I think the "hit vs. bust" rate on QBs taken Top 5 over these last 10 years seems quite a bit over 50%. Russell and Sanchez may be only certified busts (though Sanchez did take his team to two AFC title games...for what that's worth)
I wouldn't even count the most recent drafts for hits and missed, too early to tell. Looking through it 2007 - 2014 I have it 4-1-4 with Bortles being the tie.
I wouldn't even count the most recent drafts for hits and missed, too early to tell. Looking through it 2007 - 2014 I have it 4-1-4 with Bortles being the tie.
Honestly, I think the thing to take away from your list is that of the QB's taken with the first overall pick only one was a hardcore bust in Russell. Bradford is "meh" (but far from a bust), but I'd sure as shit take Stafford, Luck, Ryan, Newton. Winston is quickly turning into franchise material and Goff is a we'll see.
Looking at it that way that looks pretty good in our favor if we like a certain guy with the number one pick, but of course that means a whole lot of nothing.
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Absolutely, ghoolie. We need to invest in O-linemen and make sure that the QB is protected and we can have a solid run game.
Absolutely, ghoolie. We need to invest in O-linemen and make sure that the QB is protected and we can have a solid run game.
I'm sure you were trolling, but... OL is not only not high on my list of our needs, it's near the bottom.
LT is clearly set.
LG is set if Bito can get and stay healthy.
C is looking up with Reiter and Fabs competing, and only gets better if and when a healthy Greco returns.
RG has Paz and Drango competing, again with Greco lurking.
RT has Shon, Paz and even, yes, Cam in the mix.
That's four interior and four OT in the mix with one swing man... OK, three OTs... and Cam.
Only one left out was Bailey, who did some good work at RG, but stands to be the odd man out.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
2-3-4 here... with Ryan and Luck as my "2", and only because "Matty Ice" finally won me over this year.
So, you don't think Newton and Stafford are bona fide?
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I wouldn't even count the most recent drafts for hits and missed, too early to tell. Looking through it 2007 - 2014 I have it 4-1-4 with Bortles being the tie.
Honestly, I think the thing to take away from your list is that of the QB's taken with the first overall pick only one was a hardcore bust in Russell. Bradford is "meh" (but far from a bust), but I'd sure as shit take Stafford, Luck, Ryan, Newton. Winston is quickly turning into franchise material and Goff is a we'll see.
Looking at it that way that looks pretty good in our favor if we like a certain guy with the number one pick, but of course that means a whole lot of nothing.
Honestly, I think the thing to take away from your list is that of the QB's taken with the first overall pick only one was a hardcore bust in Russell. Bradford is "meh" (but far from a bust), but I'd sure as shit take Stafford, Luck, Ryan, Newton. Winston is quickly turning into franchise material and Goff is a we'll see.
Sanchez is not a bust?
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
2-3-4 here... with Ryan and Luck as my "2", and only because "Matty Ice" finally won me over this year.
So, you don't think Newton and Stafford are bona fide?
2-3-4 here... with Ryan and Luck as my "2", and only because "Matty Ice" finally won me over this year.
So, you don't think Newton and Stafford are bona fide?
Obviously...
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Absolutely, ghoolie. We need to invest in O-linemen and make sure that the QB is protected and we can have a solid run game.
I'm sure you were trolling, but... OL is not only not high on my list of our needs, it's near the bottom.
LT is clearly set.
LG is set if Bito can get and stay healthy.
C is looking up with Reiter and Fabs competing, and only gets better if and when a healthy Greco returns.
RG has Paz and Drango competing, again with Greco lurking.
RT has Shon, Paz and even, yes, Cam in the mix.
That's four interior and four OT in the mix with one swing man... OK, three OTs... and Cam.
Only one left out was Bailey, who did some good work at RG, but stands to be the odd man out.
I'm sure you were trolling, but... OL is not only not high on my list of our needs, it's near the bottom.
LT is clearly set.
LG is set if Bito can get and stay healthy.
C is looking up with Reiter and Fabs competing, and only gets better if and when a healthy Greco returns.
RG has Paz and Drango competing, again with Greco lurking.
RT has Shon, Paz and even, yes, Cam in the mix.
That's four interior and four OT in the mix with one swing man... OK, three OTs... and Cam.
Only one left out was Bailey, who did some good work at RG, but stands to be the odd man out.
I still want a RT or OC taken high. Elflein, Ramczyk perhaps at top/mid 2d round.
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Honestly, I think the thing to take away from your list is that of the QB's taken with the first overall pick only one was a hardcore bust in Russell. Bradford is "meh" (but far from a bust), but I'd sure as shit take Stafford, Luck, Ryan, Newton. Winston is quickly turning into franchise material and Goff is a we'll see.
Sanchez is not a bust?
Sanchez is not a bust?
I'm talking literally taken with the first overall pick in the draft like the guys I've noted. The Sanchize was drafted 5th that year, but did actually go to two AFC championship games..
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2-3-4 here... with Ryan and Luck as my "2", and only because "Matty Ice" finally won me over this year.
So, you don't think Newton and Stafford are bona fide?
Obviously...
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