Why we need a QB in Top 5

The Gipper

@harry-buffalo said:
I wouldn't even count the most recent drafts for hits and missed, too early to tell. Looking through it 2007 - 2014 I have it 4-1-4 with Bortles being the tie.

Break that down a bit more if you would. And I do think that it seems safe to conclude that both Winston and Mariota appear on their way to being very good NFL QBs. But sure, there is time for them to fall flat. After RGs and Sanchez's first years you would have said they on their way to being very good. And, Yes, way to early on Goff/Wentz.

The Gipper

@ghoolie said:

I don't think I accurately made my point, Gip,

I am not saying we ignore the QB position, I am saying we HAVE ignored it. We have ignored it by not going after the very top prospects, save Couch, and we have ignored it by not putting the QBs we have taken into a more QB friendly situation.

Yes, very fair point.

You simply cannot start out with #2 and #32, and come away with Coleman.

We got Ogbah at 32. Jury still out on both obviously.

As I pointed out, had the FO really positioned themselves to hold on to Gordon and Pryor, then the addition of Coleman was okay because THAT 3 WR tandem would indeed be a QB friendly move. Likewise, how the hell can a QB succeed when players continue to drop passes, fumble pick 6s at the goal line, make stupid penalties and miss tackles?????

This past Sunday it almost seemed like the Browns were jinxed that way.

I have always maintained the the QB is the main focus of a team. Without a great QB there is no winning. My point is that the QB is not currently the priority with the Browns. Understand my point, simply using the #1 pick on a top QB in itself is not an example of being committed to filling this hole. What if the next QB doesn't work out..................what is left for the next try to step in to? That's what the Browns lack.

I still think you go for it. What happens if it doesn't work out.....try try again.

I am sorry but how the fuck can anyone look at this team and with any credibility say that hue created a better machine for the next guy to step into.

Go ahead, pick a great QB....then put him into this shit. Our 2016 draft was a bust. Any time the NFL displays great rookie performances way better than your rookie pick, your draft is a failure. You cannot close the distance on your competitors when their 1st round picks make yours look like shit.

Well, what are we/the Browns supposed to do? Give up.....trade every first round pick they have for a pack of 3rd rounders. That won't work.

They just gotta keep pluggin' away. What else can they do?

Tour2ma

@the-gipper said:
You classify it as a person having an instinct about talent. That is what is evident.

lol... thanks for that. Needed a laugh...

@ghoolie said:

I don't think I accurately made my point, Gip,

I am not saying we ignore the QB position, I am saying we HAVE ignored it. We have ignored it by not going after the very top prospects, save Couch, and we have ignored it by not putting the QBs we have taken into a more QB friendly situation.

You simply cannot start out with #2 and #32, and come away with Coleman.
Without a great QB there is no winning. My point is that the QB is not currently the priority with the Browns. Understand my point, simply using the #1 pick on a top QB in itself is not an example of being committed to filling this hole. What if the next QB doesn't work out..................what is left for the next try to step in to? That's what the Browns lack.
I am sorry but how the fuck can anyone look at this team and with any credibility say that hue created a better machine for the next guy to step into.

For a clarification that was very confusing. Great teams do win without "great QBs", so why dilute your valid points with such a demonstrably wrong, absolute statement? Great teams don't win with "bad QBs"... and bad teams don't win even with good ones.

I've decried past drafts bypassing great talent, seemingly out of sheer ignorance, nearly as much as you have, yet I did not decry this last draft because I got what they were doing... or at least I think I did/do. This draft will be telling... this off-season will be telling.

And Hue has prepared the ground for building. How many other HCs have we had that could hold a team together thru 1 and 15? Give the man some credit for that. Not a lot? Fine... but some.

@gftchris said:
I'm 3-2-4 with bortles not a tie. Perspective is funny.

2-3-4 here... with Ryan and Luck as my "2", and only because "Matty Ice" finally won me over this year.

jrb12711

@harry-buffalo said:
I wouldn't even count the most recent drafts for hits and missed, too early to tell. Looking through it 2007 - 2014 I have it 4-1-4 with Bortles being the tie.

Honestly, I think the thing to take away from your list is that of the QB's taken with the first overall pick only one was a hardcore bust in Russell. Bradford is "meh" (but far from a bust), but I'd sure as shit take Stafford, Luck, Ryan, Newton. Winston is quickly turning into franchise material and Goff is a we'll see.

Looking at it that way that looks pretty good in our favor if we like a certain guy with the number one pick, but of course that means a whole lot of nothing.

Tour2ma

@gftchris said:
Absolutely, ghoolie. We need to invest in O-linemen and make sure that the QB is protected and we can have a solid run game.

I'm sure you were trolling, but... OL is not only not high on my list of our needs, it's near the bottom.

LT is clearly set.

LG is set if Bito can get and stay healthy.

C is looking up with Reiter and Fabs competing, and only gets better if and when a healthy Greco returns.

RG has Paz and Drango competing, again with Greco lurking.

RT has Shon, Paz and even, yes, Cam in the mix.

That's four interior and four OT in the mix with one swing man... OK, three OTs... and Cam.

Only one left out was Bailey, who did some good work at RG, but stands to be the odd man out.

The Gipper

2-3-4 here... with Ryan and Luck as my "2", and only because "Matty Ice" finally won me over this year.

So, you don't think Newton and Stafford are bona fide?

Tour2ma

@jrb12711 said:
Honestly, I think the thing to take away from your list is that of the QB's taken with the first overall pick only one was a hardcore bust in Russell. Bradford is "meh" (but far from a bust), but I'd sure as shit take Stafford, Luck, Ryan, Newton. Winston is quickly turning into franchise material and Goff is a we'll see.

Sanchez is not a bust?

Tour2ma

@the-gipper said:

2-3-4 here... with Ryan and Luck as my "2", and only because "Matty Ice" finally won me over this year.

So, you don't think Newton and Stafford are bona fide?

Obviously...

The Gipper

@tour2ma said:

I'm sure you were trolling, but... OL is not only not high on my list of our needs, it's near the bottom.

LT is clearly set.

LG is set if Bito can get and stay healthy.

C is looking up with Reiter and Fabs competing, and only gets better if and when a healthy Greco returns.

RG has Paz and Drango competing, again with Greco lurking.

RT has Shon, Paz and even, yes, Cam in the mix.

That's four interior and four OT in the mix with one swing man... OK, three OTs... and Cam.

Only one left out was Bailey, who did some good work at RG, but stands to be the odd man out.

I still want a RT or OC taken high. Elflein, Ramczyk perhaps at top/mid 2d round.

jrb12711

@tour2ma said:

Sanchez is not a bust?

I'm talking literally taken with the first overall pick in the draft like the guys I've noted. The Sanchize was drafted 5th that year, but did actually go to two AFC championship games..

The Gipper

@tour2ma said:

Obviously...

What is your criteria then. Must they have won a Super Bowl?

The Gipper

@jrb12711 said:

I'm talking literally taken with the first overall pick in the draft like the guys I've noted. The Sanchize was drafted 5th that year, but did actually go to two AFC championship games..

My post upon which this discussion revolves listed those taken in the Top 5. Here they are:

2016: QBs taken #1 and #2...Goff/Wentz

2015: QBs taken #1 and #2...Winston/Mariota

2014: QB taken #3...Bortles

2013: none taken top 5

2012: QBs taken #1 and #2 Luck/Griffin

2011: QB taken #1 Newton

2010: QB taken #1 Bradford

2009: QB taken #1 and #5 Stafford/Sanchez

2008: QB taken #3 Matt Ryan

2007: QB taken #1: Russell

So, give the hits and misses from this bunch.

The Gipper

If we go back another 10 years and look at the QBs taken in the Top 5 you have this list:

2006 Vince Young #3

2005 Alex Smith #1

2004 Eli Manning #1, Phillip Rivers #4

2003 Carson Palmer #1

2002 David Carr #1, Joey Harrington #3

2001 Michael Vick #1

2000 none

1999 Tim Couch #1, Donovan McNabb #2, Akili Smith #3

1998 Peyton Manning #1, Ryan Leaf #2

Here, it is definitely hit or miss. Major quality QBs, major busts.

Zombo

My post upon which this discussion revolves listed those taken in the Top 5. Here they are:

2016: QBs taken #1 and #2...Goff/Wentz Too Early

2015: QBs taken #1 and #2...Winston/Mariota Hitting ... Hitting

2014: QB taken #3...Bortles Missing

2013: none taken top 5

2012: QBs taken #1 and #2 Luck/Griffin Hit/Miss

2011: QB taken #1 Newton Hit

2010: QB taken #1 Bradford Missing

2009: QB taken #1 and #5 Stafford/Sanchez Hit/Miss

2008: QB taken #3 Matt Ryan Hit

2007: QB taken #1: Russell Miss

Mark O

Zombo said:

My post upon which this discussion revolves listed those taken in the Top 5. Here they are:

2016: QBs taken #1 and #2...Goff/Wentz Too Early

2015: QBs taken #1 and #2...Winston/Mariota Hitting ... Hitting

2014: QB taken #3...Bortles Missing

2013: none taken top 5

2012: QBs taken #1 and #2 Luck/Griffin Hit/Miss

2011: QB taken #1 Newton Hit

2010: QB taken #1 Bradford Missing

2009: QB taken #1 and #5 Stafford/Sanchez Hit/Miss

2008: QB taken #3 Matt Ryan Hit

2007: QB taken #1: Russell Miss

I'd go with that ranking as well. Except I'd say Bortles and Bradford are misses.

Zombo

@mark-o said:

I'd go with that ranking as well. Except I'd say Bortles and Bradford are misses.

Ya, Bradford is no #1 overall in worth, but he can start a season for ya.

Bortles looks like just a guy as well.

Zombo

Mark O

Zombo said:

Ya, Bradford is no #1 overall in worth, but he can start a season for ya.

Bortles looks like just a guy as well.

Zombo

Look what the Vikings gave up for him thinking they had a "super bowl team" and what did that get them? The same thing as the Browns, sitting at home watching the playoffs, except the draft picks they gave up for him.

Bortles isn't even just a guy...he just plain sucks.

The Gipper

@ghoolie said:

I always have to laugh my ass off when someone blasts the Steelers by saying shit like.......... "Well, without Ben and Brown, they are pedestrian". What the Fuck does that mean? The Steelers suck dick because if you take their best players away they are not as good? So, what the fuck would the Browns have been without Jim Brown?

Well, that is sort of my point Ghoolie.....that the difference between the teams talent wise is merely a matter of 3-4 quality impact players.

I mean, yes, that is important, and makes all the difference......but the other point is that the gap between them, talentwise, is not all that great.

The Steelers are one of the best teams of 2016. Even in the SB years, the Steelers weren't blowing the Browns out. Division games are always tough. The Steelers played lesser players, the game had little meaning. It was th SB for the Browns, and even with Tom Selleck at QB, when it mattered, the Steelers do what they always do............they fuck the Browns right in the pussy.

Or, as often or not, like this past week....it is the Browns fucking themselves with stupid as shit mistakes and decisions.

I am not a huge fan of Tomlin, but I also would not be surprised to see the Steelers in the show, or at least the AFC championship game. I don't care if you hate the fuckers, but for the love of God people, their level of talent, intensity, aggression, discipline and execution is in a different league than the Browns.

Except, that on Sunday...it was not.....except for the discipline and execution part. The Browns matched...no...exceeded... the Steelers in talent, intensity, and aggression....but fucked up in discipline and execution.

This conversation is like listening to a guy making fun of the way your wife looks when he is with Whoopie GoldTurd. Get over it already. The Steelers are good team. They have a great culture and rabid fans. How the fuck do you knock down the team that spanks you every fucking year? It is like a Michigan fan shouting that Ohio State sucks.

Well, OK, but if you saw that Ohio State/Michigan game you would have to say that Michigan was just about every bit Ohio State's equal in that game.

And it took fuckups by Michigan to win.

Again, take BR, Brown, Bell....off the Steelers and on the Browns and which team do you think generally wins?

Moronic.

The Gipper

@ghoolie said:
He was trolling. Everyone knows my feeling on OL men. Dime-a-dozen. Most SB winners wind up winning with a makeship OL with a lot of starters hurt. The OL is however vitally important. Ours sucks. At the same time, I don't any other team has given more draft and FA attention to the OL, as the Browns have. But that doesn't mean shit. there is adequate talent, there is no leadership.

And we can say also that no team has done what you have wanted and given more draft and FA attention to offensive skill players than the Browns. And that hasn't meant shit either. The talent they have gotten at those skill positions has NOT been adequate.

tiamat63

Had to go back and watch Rodgers at Cal to refesh myself.

I have no clue how you're drawing this comparison, Gip.