Our defense is #6 in rushing and #9 overall.
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To Mark (I have a shitty internet atm, I can't make a long reply with a quote:
I think that it is normal to have a young, unexperienced defense with a new coordinator, etc. to have bad games. Houston offense was on fire, and against Cincinnatti the offense was horrendous. I remember the pick that Britt allowed in the endzone and how the first two Bengals' drives I believe were 3 and outs and we only got to fail a field goal.
My biggest concern is that I think the problem is that the defense doesn't play all 4 quaters. They're not constant during the same game.
I think that it is normal to have a young, unexperienced defense with a new coordinator, etc. to have bad games. Houston offense was on fire, and against Cincinnatti the offense was horrendous. I remember the pick that Britt allowed in the endzone and how the first two Bengals' drives I believe were 3 and outs and we only got to fail a field goal.
My biggest concern is that I think the problem is that it doesn't play all 4 quaters. They're not constant during the same game.
I was there for the Cincy game...the defense was no existant in the first half. 21 2nd quarter points. 13 play 88 yard drive and 3 play 81 yard drive. Game is 21-0 at halftime and over.
And yes...I agree that they will have bad games. The point though is that we have some here telling us the defense is awesome and you have to keep a lousy HC so that the defensive coordinator doesn't leave which is just stupid. The defense isn't that good...these aren't hte 85 Bears.
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I think that it is normal to have a young, unexperienced defense with a new coordinator, etc. to have bad games. Houston offense was on fire, and against Cincinnatti the offense was horrendous. I remember the pick that Britt allowed in the endzone and how the first two Bengals' drives I believe were 3 and outs and we only got to fail a field goal.
My biggest concern is that I think the problem is that it doesn't play all 4 quaters. They're not constant during the same game.
I was there for the Cincy game...the defense was no existant in the first half. 21 2nd quarter points. 13 play 88 yard drive and 3 play 81 yard drive. Game is 21-0 at halftime and over.
And yes...I agree that they will have bad games. The point though is that we have some here telling us the defense is awesome and you have to keep a lousy HC so that the defensive coordinator doesn't leave which is just stupid. The defense isn't that good...these aren't hte 85 Bears.
I was there for the Cincy game...the defense was no existant in the first half. 21 2nd quarter points. 13 play 88 yard drive and 3 play 81 yard drive. Game is 21-0 at halftime and over.
And yes...I agree that they will have bad games. The point though is that we have some here telling us the defense is awesome and you have to keep a lousy HC so that the defensive coordinator doesn't leave which is just stupid. The defense isn't that good...these aren't hte 85 Bears.
Nobody said they're the 85 bears. No one. Im not going into it again why its a horrendous move to retool a vastly improved defense. U just dont understand the game. At all. U see good offenses or defenses on other teams and u think its magic analytics sprinkles. You have no conception how "good football" comes about on either side of the ball.
Ur just a casual fantasy football fan. No more no less. Oh and i never said this defense was awesome. I said it was vastly improved over last year. And the year before that. But theres things it also doesnt do well because theres serious talent deficiencies at certain positions. But williams has done with more ir kess the same players as last year warrants he goes FUKKING NOWHERE. Any fan with a modicum of football IQ understands this
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I was there for the Cincy game...the defense was no existant in the first half. 21 2nd quarter points. 13 play 88 yard drive and 3 play 81 yard drive. Game is 21-0 at halftime and over.
And yes...I agree that they will have bad games. The point though is that we have some here telling us the defense is awesome and you have to keep a lousy HC so that the defensive coordinator doesn't leave which is just stupid. The defense isn't that good...these aren't hte 85 Bears.
Nobody said they're the 85 bears. No one. Im not going into it again why its a horrendous move to retool a vastly improved defense. U just dont understand the game. At all. U see good offenses or defenses on other teams and u think its magic analytics sprinkles. You have no conception how "good football" comes about on either side of the ball.
Ur just a casual fantasy football fan. No more no less. Oh and i never said this defense was awesome. I said it was vastly improved over last year. And the year before that. But theres things it also doesnt do well because theres serious talent deficiencies at certain positions. But williams has done with more ir kess the same players as last year warrants he goes FUKKING NOWHERE. Any fan with a modicum of football IQ understands this
Nobody said they're the 85 bears. No one. Im not going into it again why its a horrendous move to retool a vastly improved defense. U just dont understand the game. At all. U see good offenses or defenses on other teams and u think its magic analytics sprinkles. You have no conception how "good football" comes about on either side of the ball.
Ur just a casual fantasy football fan. No more no less. Oh and i never said this defense was awesome. I said it was vastly improved over last year. And the year before that. But theres things it also doesnt do well because theres serious talent deficiencies at certain positions. But williams has done with more ir kess the same players as last year warrants he goes FUKKING NOWHERE. Any fan with a modicum of football IQ understands this
Who you kidding? This defense sucks!
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Nobody said they're the 85 bears. No one. Im not going into it again why its a horrendous move to retool a vastly improved defense. U just dont understand the game. At all. U see good offenses or defenses on other teams and u think its magic analytics sprinkles. You have no conception how "good football" comes about on either side of the ball.
Ur just a casual fantasy football fan. No more no less. Oh and i never said this defense was awesome. I said it was vastly improved over last year. And the year before that. But theres things it also doesnt do well because theres serious talent deficiencies at certain positions. But williams has done with more ir kess the same players as last year warrants he goes FUKKING NOWHERE. Any fan with a modicum of football IQ understands this
Who you kidding? This defense sucks!
Who you kidding? This defense sucks!
Not in all aspects. They stuffed the run the whole season and in the lions game till collins got hurt. Some games they did "ok" against the pass. Consistent qb pressure is a major deficiency tho, ive been harping on that all season. Ive stated multiple times we need to target a veteran DE in the offseason.
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clevfan did it better than I could in saying that new head coaches want a whole new staff that will stroke their ego. No one really knows why it happens, but it does. NO ONE KEEPS COORDINATORS. Wade Phillips, hall of fame DC, one of the best of all time, left Denver for LA in a year where Denver hired a very young HC (who one would think would be happy to have Phillips stick around). And now, what do ya know, Denver's defense is struggling tremendously.
Yep...and the Rams defense who lost the all world Greg Williams doesn't seem to have missed him one bit so far this season have they?
Yep...and the Rams defense who lost the all world Greg Williams doesn't seem to have missed him one bit so far this season have they?
They replaced him with Wade Phillips. This was in the post to which you were responding....
Also, the niners & colts played an extra game than the rest of the league when this was posted. . .
Then it's a good thing they do it on a points allowed per game basis.
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What we can all agree is that the defense is objectively better than last season. We actually have pieces (Garrett, Kirksey, Collins, Ogbah, Schobert) who I feel like can be long-term starters on the team. It's not world beater, but at least it's trending upward.
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Ok, we're ranked 29 and lost our best player on a squad devoid of playmakers. Excuse me for not glowing. Seems like the same ole rat in a drain ditch
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@boo-fagley said:
I wouldnt say the defense is awesome, but I also wouldnt say the defense is the reason why the Browns have not won.
Nobody saying the def is awesome. Christ a week ago i said im glad that this def seems to have the run stopping diwn, didnt call them the 85 beats just said hey they're at least doing something well and that's something to build on.
And becausebi know something about the game of football i know that while passing dominates the stats....if a defense can consistently stop the run that means they control the line of scrimmage. Good things can be built on that.
Defenses that cant stop the run get wore down and then demoralized as they get blasted off the ball. Any former players know this, even if u were a kicker
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@boo-fagley said:
Agreed
Stopping the run is job # 1.
Well passing does take precedent in a passing league. U dont have to have the number one rush d but u cant have pussys on the line that get blown off the line in the 4th quarter when teams with a lead start to run the ball
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You guys need to think about that before you clamor for another regime change. That's in ONE Shmucking YEAR under "coffee fetcher" Williams. I'm looking right at you Ghoolie. Anyway, seriously....I know there's a Sheet ton wrong with this franchise still. I get it. But remember the last time we felt semi good about our defense? It was when Jauron was here. But we all hated Shurmur and were like get this Kunt out of here. Well then we hire Chudzinski but he brings in Ray Horton. Not exactly sure if that was Chuds call cause Jauron didn't want to stay or if Chud could have kept Jauron...I dunno. But point is HC changes, this usually happens. We've got goofballs here asking to bring in Rex footboy Ryan.....well you can kilss Williams good bye cause Rex runs what Pettine ran here. How'd that work out for us? Please please please can we shut the Shmuck up about staff changes? We have a DC here now that in one year has turned a team laden with mediocre to less than mediocre talent at some very key positions, into a top 10 defense.
We're still 18'th in pass defense but I think that's more a product of our poor pass rush instead of on the secondary.
You guys need to think about that before you clamor for another regime change. That's in ONE Shmucking YEAR under "coffee fetcher" Williams.
We're still 18'th in pass defense but I think that's more a product of our poor pass rush instead of on the secondary.
We still have FS issues as well as versatility issues at LB contributing to Pass D woes as well. Vs. DET Kirksey seemed far less effective in pass D than I've seen him. But, yes, a dominant pass rush makes up for a lot of shortcomings. We just don't have the horses yet to generate consistent pressure.... no ying to MG's yang.
Then there's the whole "since we do stop the run teams have to pass" thing...
But don't look at Phoollie... you'll go blind.
Yeah. Wasn't exactly what we were looking for. But at least it was kind of exciting.
So exciting losses were better?
I get it... the promise of being in games... of pulling games out at the end does bring a sugar high and that can be satisfying in the moment... especially when you are starving as we are now. But the great crash of 2014, plus what followed in 2015, left me feeling more empty than what I feel now.
Going to see if I can take 5 more pages of nay-saying crap...
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
@boo-fagley said:
Agreed
Stopping the run is job # 1.
Just curious but whatever happened to the idea of balance? You know, tough against the run and can pass cover. It's either one or the other with this team. And balance between the O and D is what creates champion teams.
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People who want to point fingers and whine simply ignore facts ---- and when facts are presented, they avoid the facts even harder. Overhauling an organization is not easy.. despite the many assertions that "Just hire a football guy!" would naturally immediately be followed by endless riches. No doubt that's the same bunch who assert "Just draft playmakers!" yields infinite super bowls.
Funny how the two people on this forum who have executed organizational change at the C-suite level [Tour and myself] realize that it's a long tough slog with many factors and milestones along the way.
If you have no boots-on-the-ground knowledge of something, the smart way to approach that thing is to ask someone who has already done it... before formulating your own opinion.
I think achieving results happens to demonstrate that "The Process" is working. Not complete by any stretch, but we're better now than we were last season. And next season there's no reason to assume we won't be better than we are this season.
Just to be clear, Browns are #1 in Yards Given Up Per Rushing Attempt [total rushing yards / number of rushing plays].. I don't know what metric is being discussed when saying "we're #6" -- what is the numerator and denominator of that metric?
Well... 5 pages reading time I'll never get back. But two things were gleaned...
- If he made these kinds of posts in the Old Tavern, then Mark O would have kicked himself enough to ban himself. Nonetheless I gave you an honesty point along the way for being honest when you said, "I have no idea how to fix it." ... or something to that effect.
- I've somehow missed a brother-in-arms...
Funny how the two people on this forum who have executed organizational change at the C-suite level [Tour and myself] realize that it's a long tough slog with many factors and milestones along the way.
Hey bro...
As we know you set a dashboard to measure progress... you don't stare at the bottom line waiting to see a change. Just the thing this thread (and more than a few others) end up being about.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Well... 5 pages reading time I'll never get back. But two things were gleaned...
- If he made these kinds of posts in the Old Tavern, then Mark O would have kicked himself enough to ban himself. Nonetheless I gave you an honesty point along the way for being honest when you said, "I have no idea how to fix it." ... or something to that effect.
- I've somehow missed a brother-in-arms...
Funny how the two people on this forum who have executed organizational change at the C-suite level [Tour and myself] realize that it's a long tough slog with many factors and milestones along the way.
Hey bro...
As we know you set a dashboard to measure progress... you don't stare at the bottom line waiting to see a change. Just the thing this thread (and more than a few others) end up being about.
As we know you set a dashboard to measure progress... you don't stare at the bottom line waiting to see a change. Just the thing this thread (and more than a few others) end up being about.
True, but when the driver keeps steering the car into the rails every game day, it's hard hitting your head on the dashboard.
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Well... 5 pages reading time I'll never get back. But two things were gleaned...
- If he made these kinds of posts in the Old Tavern, then Mark O would have kicked himself enough to ban himself. Nonetheless I gave you an honesty point along the way for being honest when you said, "I have no idea how to fix it." ... or something to that effect.
- I've somehow missed a brother-in-arms...
Funny how the two people on this forum who have executed organizational change at the C-suite level [Tour and myself] realize that it's a long tough slog with many factors and milestones along the way.
Hey bro...
As we know you set a dashboard to measure progress... you don't stare at the bottom line waiting to see a change. Just the thing this thread (and more than a few others) end up being about.
Well... 5 pages reading time I'll never get back. But two things were gleaned...
- If he made these kinds of posts in the Old Tavern, then Mark O would have kicked himself enough to ban himself. Nonetheless I gave you an honesty point along the way for being honest when you said, "I have no idea how to fix it." ... or something to that effect.
I realize that. I guess losing when I thought we would actually see progress in the form of wins can even break down an optimist. Maybe it's the $1000 trip I took to Cleveland to have the game be over at halftime when our defense decided not to play the 2nd quarter, and the offense didn't play much of the game at all.
In my opinion...something needs to change in the offseason. This level of losing shouldn't happen and something has to change.
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Well... I can loan you some...
... optimism that is...
I'll even throw in the knowledge that I dropped ~$5k on a London loss... of course that also got me to 10 wonderful days in France... on the wife.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Well... I can loan you some...
... optimism that is...
I'll even throw in the knowledge that I dropped ~$5k on a London loss... of course that also got me to 10 wonderful days in France... on the wife.
Well... I can loan you some...
... optimism that is...
I'll even throw in the knowledge that I dropped ~$5k on a London loss... of course that also got me to 10 wonderful days in France... on the wife.
While it was still a loss....the London game was at least entertaining for a bit more than half the game.
I'll find some optimism in time for the game Sunday....we'll see how long it lasts during the game.
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Well... 5 pages reading time I'll never get back. But two things were gleaned...
- If he made these kinds of posts in the Old Tavern, then Mark O would have kicked himself enough to ban himself. Nonetheless I gave you an honesty point along the way for being honest when you said, "I have no idea how to fix it." ... or something to that effect.
- I've somehow missed a brother-in-arms...
Funny how the two people on this forum who have executed organizational change at the C-suite level [Tour and myself] realize that it's a long tough slog with many factors and milestones along the way.
Hey bro...
As we know you set a dashboard to measure progress... you don't stare at the bottom line waiting to see a change. Just the thing this thread (and more than a few others) end up being about.
As we know you set a dashboard to measure progress... you don't stare at the bottom line waiting to see a change. Just the thing this thread (and more than a few others) end up being about.
And to create that dashboard we have to determine: First, what metrics to display.. second, for each metric: the numerator/denominator, the data source(s) to be used, and if that metric isn't gathered yet a specific number of data points to create the baseline from which we can measure improvement. I like 8 data points minimum, 20 would be the engineered solution. And once we have all that we need to determine how to report it.. I like showing the raw stats left-to-right and % change, using red/yellow/green in the same column as the %.
This forum can't even agree on how we could know we've finished the project, let alone tease out goals along the way that would show progress..
[Is it done when we draft a QB with next year's 1? Is it done when he throws 30TD's in a year because then he'd finally have WR weapons even though the record that season would of course be 5-11? Is it done when we have a RB who has 1100 yards who isn't named Peyton?]
Until then, somehow there's an open bottle of Glenlivet Nadurra right in front of me!
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As we know you set a dashboard to measure progress... you don't stare at the bottom line waiting to see a change. Just the thing this thread (and more than a few others) end up being about.
And to create that dashboard we have to determine: First, what metrics to display.. second, for each metric: the numerator/denominator, the data source(s) to be used, and if that metric isn't gathered yet a specific number of data points to create the baseline from which we can measure improvement. I like 8 data points minimum, 20 would be the engineered solution. And once we have all that we need to determine how to report it.. I like showing the raw stats left-to-right and % change, using red/yellow/green in the same column as the %.
This forum can't even agree on how we could know we've finished the project, let alone tease out goals along the way that would show progress..
[Is it done when we draft a QB with next year's 1? Is it done when he throws 30TD's in a year because then he'd finally have WR weapons even though the record that season would of course be 5-11? Is it done when we have a RB who has 1100 yards who isn't named Peyton?]
Until then, somehow there's an open bottle of Glenlivet Nadurra right in front of me!
Yup... yup... yup... yup... and... yup.
Until then, somehow there's an open bottle of Glenlivet Nadurra right in front of me!
Never had it... less "peaty" than everyday GlenL? I don't appreciate peat. More of an Oban/Glenmorangie guy, myself.
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Well... 5 pages reading time I'll never get back. But two things were gleaned...
- If he made these kinds of posts in the Old Tavern, then Mark O would have kicked himself enough to ban himself. Nonetheless I gave you an honesty point along the way for being honest when you said, "I have no idea how to fix it." ... or something to that effect.
I realize that. I guess losing when I thought we would actually see progress in the form of wins can even break down an optimist. Maybe it's the $1000 trip I took to Cleveland to have the game be over at halftime when our defense decided not to play the 2nd quarter, and the offense didn't play much of the game at all.
In my opinion...something needs to change in the offseason. This level of losing shouldn't happen and something has to change.
This level of losing shouldn't happen and something has to change.
Nobodys disagreeing with u on that point. But us guys that have paid attention to the defense and can see pieces falling in place with a DC that's honestly done a he k of a job with major talent gaps at jey positions, we dont want to see that torn up and back to square 1. We've done this for like 8 straight years now.
If haslem says we're getting a new HC but willuams has to stay....ok fine
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Well... I can loan you some...
... optimism that is...
I'll even throw in the knowledge that I dropped ~$5k on a London loss... of course that also got me to 10 wonderful days in France... on the wife.
While it was still a loss....the London game was at least entertaining for a bit more than half the game.
I'll find some optimism in time for the game Sunday....we'll see how long it lasts during the game.
I'll find some optimism in time for the game Sunday....we'll see how long it lasts during the game.
Its the jags so might as well tivo figure skating so at halftime u can score brownie points with the wifey by switching over. Hey Honey lets watch 8 people in a row do the same Sheet to diff music
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