Lamar Jackson to the Ravens

[boo fagley]

@tour2ma said:

Jackson faced 57 players who were drafted by the NFL.... plus UDFAs. Does look like 8 of the 57 were Louisville players, so he only faced them in practice.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/draft-finder.cgi?request=1&year_min=2015&year_max=2017&draft_slot_min=1&draft_slot_max=500&pick_type=overall&pos[]=dt&pos[]=de&pos[]=dl&pos[]=ilb&pos[]=olb&pos[]=lb&pos[]=cb&pos[]=s&pos[]=db&conference=acc&show=all&order_by=default

Drafted Players

Rk	Year	Rnd	Pick		Pos	DrAge	Tm	From	To	AP1	PB	St	CarAV	G	GS	Int	Sk	College/Univ
1	2017	2	51	DeMarcus Walker	DE	22	DEN	2017	2017	0	0	0	1	10	0		1.0	Florida St.	College Stats
2	2017	2	61	Josh Jones	S	22	GNB	2017	2017	0	0	0	3	16	7	1	2.0	North Carolina St.	College Stats
3	2017	3	91	John Johnson	S	21	LAR	2017	2017	0	0	1	5	16	11	1		Boston Col.	College Stats
4	2017	3	97	Cordrea Tankersley	CB	23	MIA	2017	2017	0	0	1	3	11	11			Clemson	College Stats
5	2017	3	102	Nazair Jones	DT	22	SEA	2017	2017	0	0	0	2	11	2	1	2.0	North Carolina	College Stats
6	2017	4	113	Rayshawn Jenkins	S	23	LAC	2017	2017	0	0	0	1	15	0			Miami (FL)	College Stats
7	2017	4	142	Carlos Watkins	DT	23	HOU	2017	2017	0	0	0	3	12	6			Clemson	College Stats
8	2017	5	152	Corn Elder	CB	22	CAR			0	0	0						Miami (FL)	College Stats
9	2017	5	163	Matt Milano	LB	23	BUF	2017	2017	0	0	0	4	16	5	1		Boston Col.	College Stats
10	2017	5	168	Marquel Lee	LB	21	OAK	2017	2017	0	0	0	3	13	6			Wake Forest	College Stats
11	2017	6	186	Chuck Clark	DB	22	BAL	2017	2017	0	0	0	1	15	0			Virginia Tech	College Stats
12	2017	6	196	Al-Quadin Muhammad	DE	22	NOR	2017	2017	0	0	0	0	4	0			Miami (FL)	College Stats
13	2017	6	216	Marquez White	CB	22	DAL			0	0	0						Florida St.	College Stats
14	2017	7	229	Adrian Colbert	DB	23	SFO	2017	2017	0	0	0	2	14	6			Miami (FL)	College Stats
15	2017	7	230	Josh Harvey-Clemons	S	23	WAS	2017	2017	0	0	0	1	10	0		0.5	Louisville	College Stats
16	2017	7	234	Ejuan Price	DE	24	LAR	2017	2017	0	0	0	0	1	0			Pittsburgh	College Stats
17	2017	7	245	Jack Tocho	CB	21	MIN			0	0	0						North Carolina St.	College Stats
18	2016	1	5	Jalen Ramsey	CB	21	JAX	2016	2017	1	1	2	22	32	32	6		Florida St.	College Stats
19	2016	1	12	Sheldon Rankins	DT	22	NOR	2016	2017	0	0	1	8	25	16	1	6.0	Louisville	College Stats
20	2016	1	19	Shaq Lawson	DE	22	BUF	2016	2017	0	0	1	5	21	11		6.0	Clemson	College Stats
21	2016	1	25	Artie Burns	CB	21	PIT	2016	2017	0	0	1	11	32	25	4		Miami (FL)	College Stats
22	2016	2	33	Kevin Dodd	DE	24	TEN	2016	2017	0	0	0	2	18	1		1.0	Clemson	College Stats
23	2016	2	54	Mackensie Alexander	CB	22	MIN	2016	2017	0	0	0	2	27	0	1		Clemson	College Stats
24	2016	2	57	T.J. Green	FS	21	IND	2016	2017	0	0	0	4	31	11			Clemson	College Stats
25	2016	2	63	Adam Gotsis	DT	23	DEN	2016	2017	0	0	1	8	32	13		2.0	Georgia Tech	College Stats
26	2016	3	84	Kendall Fuller	CB	21	WAS	2016	2017	0	0	0	6	29	12	4		Virginia Tech	College Stats
27	2016	3	98	Justin Simmons	FS	22	DEN	2016	2017	0	0	1	7	26	16	4	2.0	Boston Col.	College Stats
28	2016	4	109	B.J. Goodson	OLB	23	NYG	2016	2017	0	0	0	4	22	7			Clemson	College Stats
29	2016	4	118	Juston Burris	CB	23	NYJ	2016	2017	0	0	0	3	30	2	2		North Carolina St.	College Stats
30	2016	4	124	Deon Bush	S	23	CHI	2016	2017	0	0	0	3	24	6			Miami (FL)	College Stats
Rk	Year	Rnd	Pick	Player	Pos	DrAge	Tm	From	To	AP1	PB	St	CarAV	G	GS	Int	Sk	College/Univ	College_link
31	2016	5	166	D.J. Reader	NT	22	HOU	2016	2017	0	0	1	10	30	21		2.0	Clemson	College Stats
32	2016	6	178	D.J. White	CB	22	KAN	2016	2017	0	0	0	1	13	0	1		Georgia Tech	College Stats
33	2016	6	203	Dadi Nicolas	DE	23	KAN	2016	2016	0	0	0	1	11	0			Virginia Tech	College Stats
34	2016	6	209	Maurice Canady	CB	22	BAL	2016	2017	0	0	0	1	12	1			Virginia	College Stats
35	2016	7	232	Steven Daniels	ILB	23	WAS			0	0	0						Boston Col.	College Stats
36	2016	7	244	Jayron Kearse	S	22	MIN	2016	2017	0	0	0	2	31	1			Clemson	College Stats
37	2015	1	8	Vic Beasley	OLB	23	ATL	2015	2017	1	1	3	22	46	36	1	24.5	Clemson	College Stats
38	2015	1	16	Kevin Johnson	CB	23	HOU	2015	2017	0	0	0	9	34	17	1		Wake Forest	College Stats
39	2015	1	31	Stephone Anthony	ILB	23	NOR	2015	2017	0	0	1	9	34	19	1	1.0	Clemson	College Stats
40	2015	2	35	Mario Edwards	DT	21	OAK	2015	2017	0	0	2	11	30	24		5.5	Florida St.	College Stats
41	2015	2	39	Eddie Goldman	DT	21	CHI	2015	2017	0	0	2	16	36	32		8.5	Florida St.	College Stats
42	2015	2	48	Denzel Perryman	ILB	22	SDG	2015	2017	0	0	2	12	33	26	1	4.0	Miami (FL)	College Stats
43	2015	2	50	Ronald Darby	CB	21	BUF	2015	2017	0	0	2	13	37	36	5		Florida St.	College Stats
44	2015	3	78	P.J. Williams	CB	22	NOR	2016	2017	0	0	0	4	18	8	2		Florida St.	College Stats
45	2015	3	79	Eli Harold	OLB	21	SFO	2015	2017	0	0	2	12	48	25		5.0	Virginia	College Stats
46	2015	3	82	Lorenzo Mauldin	OLB	22	NYJ	2015	2016	0	0	0	4	26	4	1	6.5	Louisville	College Stats
47	2015	4	104	James Sample	SS	23	JAX	2015	2015	0	0	0	1	4	2			Louisville	College Stats
48	2015	5	137	Grady Jarrett	NT	22	ATL	2015	2017	0	0	2	16	47	32		8.0	Clemson	College Stats
49	2015	6	177	Deiontrez Mount	OLB	22	TEN	2015	2017	0	0	0	1	12	0	1		Louisville
50	2015	6	179	Max Valles	OLB	21	OAK			0	0	0						Virginia	College Stats
51	2015	6	181	Kyshoen Jarrett	SS	22	WAS	2015	2015	0	0	0	2	16	6			Virginia Tech	College Stats
52	2015	6	188	Tony Steward	OLB	22	BUF	2015	2015	0	0	0	1	7	0			Clemson
53	2015	6	189	Charles Gaines	CB	22	CLE	2015	2015	0	0	0	1	6	4			Louisville	College Stats
54	2015	6	193	B.J. Dubose	DE	23	MIN			0	0	0						Louisville	College Stats
55	2015	6	212	Anthony Chickillo	DE	22	PIT	2015	2017	0	0	0	7	38	9		5.5	Miami (FL)	College Stats
56	2015	7	237	Brian Mihalik	DE	23	PHI	2017	2017	0	0	0	2	15	2			Boston Col.	College Stats
57	2015	7	239	Gerod Holliman	FS	21	PIT			0	0	0						Louisville	College Stats

The 20 drafted players in 2015 never faced Jackson. 

Will Gardner and Reggie Bonnafon were the Louie QBs in 2014. Jackson wasnt on the roster http://gocards.com/roster.aspx?roster=49  and was the QB in 2015, 2016 and 2017. Declared as a Junior.

Shame too, because players like Vic Beasley are what Im most interested about.

Jackson dominated in the NCAA, but against who? Bench warmers, special teams people and practice squad bodies actually hurt his cause.

[Louisville Slugger]

@boo-fagley said:

The 20 drafted players in 2015 never faced Jackson. 

Will Gardner and Reggie Bonnafon were the Louie QBs in 2014. Jackson wasnt on the roster http://gocards.com/roster.aspx?roster=49  and was the QB in 2015, 2016 and 2017. Declared as a Junior.

Shame too, because players like Vic Beasley are what Im most interested about.

Jackson dominated in the NCAA, but against who? Bench warmers, special teams people and practice squad bodies actually hurt his cause.

You mean the entire Clemson defensive line that is projected to go in the first round? What about Bradley Chubb the guy that everybody wanted to be a Brown? Derwin James? The people he played with are just getting to the NFL too. 

I don't get why you hate on the man so hard. Halfway through the season he's going to be the talk of the NFL and make some of you guys look real silly

[TexasAg1969]

@louisville-slugger said:

You mean the entire Clemson defensive line that is projected to go in the first round? What about Bradley Chubb the guy that everybody wanted to be a Brown? Derwin James? The people he played with are just getting to the NFL too. 

I don't get why you hate on the man so hard. Halfway through the season he's going to be the talk of the NFL and make some of you guys look real silly

The only one of the bunch likely to break out this year is Rosen. The rest ALL have a lot to learn about running NFL offenses. Legs are a major advantage, but the arm and brain finding the receivers out of route trees and tight windows separate the OK from the great. I don't think Lamar has that ability-----yet. Maybe with time he will.

[Louisville Slugger]

Look what Roman did with Alex Smith (who was a bust before he got his hands on him), Kapernick, and Tyrod Taylor. Unless Flacco plays lights out Lamar is going to take his job and he will be the star of sports center every week. Baker vs Jackson is going to be an interesting matchup for the foreseeable future. 

[Tour2ma]

@boo-fagley said:

Lots of good info.

A cursory glance reveals quite a few draft picks have never started an NFL game. Some are practice sqyad guys who Jackson will never face in the pros.

@boo-fagley said:

The 20 drafted players in 2015 never faced Jackson.

Correct... including the 2015 draft class was a mistake. It resulted in an undercount for Jackson.

The new total for Jackson is 36 from the 2017 and 2016 classes plus 29 from 2018 for a total of 65 ACC defenders drafted that Jackson faced.

https://www.ajc.com/sports/acc-players-selected-2018-nfl-draft/v5ekOCh91i82Fr5kzWMtjL/

In fairness to Allen, I need to redo his earlier total of 11. Now it's 7 from 2016 and 2017 plus 2 from 2018 for a new total of 9. Oops...

https://www.mwcconnection.com/2018/4/30/17300930/2018-draft-post-draft-tracker

As for when and where the QBs faced the listed players... all I can say is that I addressed your original question. If you don't like the answer and want to change it now, that's your prerogative. By definition the players I counted signed pro contracts and thus were "pros Jackson played against at Louisville."

@boo-fagley said:

How many pros did Jackson play against at Louie?

[hoorta]

@louisville-slugger said:

Look what Roman did with Alex Smith (who was a bust before he got his hands on him), Kapernick, and Tyrod Taylor. Unless Flacco plays lights out Lamar is going to take his job and he will be the star of sports center every week. Baker vs Jackson is going to be an interesting matchup for the foreseeable future. 

Jackson has one maybe two plus traits. Great speed ( a minimal plus in the NFL) and a above average arm. My take is he's a lesser version of Josh Allen. The odds of him beating out Flacco are remote. 

Star of Sports Center? Not this year.

[boo fagley]

@tour2ma said:

Correct... including the 2015 draft class was a mistake. It resulted in an undercount for Jackson.

The new total for Jackson is 36 from the 2017 and 2016 classes plus 29 from 2018 for a total of 65 ACC defenders drafted that Jackson faced.

https://www.ajc.com/sports/acc-players-selected-2018-nfl-draft/v5ekOCh91i82Fr5kzWMtjL/

In fairness to Allen, I need to redo his earlier total of 11. Now it's 7 from 2016 and 2017 plus 2 from 2018 for a new total of 9. Oops...

https://www.mwcconnection.com/2018/4/30/17300930/2018-draft-post-draft-tracker

As for when and where the QBs faced the listed players... all I can say is that I addressed your original question. If you don't like the answer and want to change it now, that's your prerogative. By definition the players I counted signed pro contracts and thus were "pros Jackson played against at Louisville."

28 players added from the 2018 draft. Proehl is a WR.

7TH - 4

6TH - 3

5TH - 4

4TH - 4

3RD - 6

2ND - 2

1ST - 5

The Term "Pros" is an NFL player who makes an impact for his team on the defensive side of the ball. IE: Starter like Jalen Ramsey, Kevin Johnson. Chubb should be one. Or a situational player or specialist like pass rusher or NT. Approximately 40% of the players drafted turn out to be of no use. Practice squad, special teams, bottom of depth chart guys that are drafted are not included with little to no chance of ever facing Jackson.

Troubling passing numbers here for Jackson

Vs SEC 48.5% ouch. 

Vs ACC 57% With all those ACC players drafted that you have provided us this is not good news.

VS MAC 82%. Tore up Kent State

When Jackson struggled with pass vs the SEC and ACC he was a beast running.

Vs ACC 6.2 YAC. 

Vs SEC 7.0 YAC

There should be not much of an issue rushing for Jackson should the pass game evaporate. 4 - 5 YAC all day long.

[The Cysko Kid]

@texasag1969 said:

There are not all that many with 4.3 speed and and quick twitch change of direction. Just go back and watch the old Vick plays and it's clear you CAN run against NFL speed successfully. It's his arm and ability to learn the intricacies of a playbook and reading defenses properly that are the real crux of his future as an NFL QB.

And what did Vick ever accomplish?

[TexasAg1969]

@the-cysko-kid said:

And what did Vick ever accomplish?

I think I pretty well separated running abilities from throwing abilities. Nowhere did I claim he would be a success, only that he could run even against NFL speed.

[tiamat63]

@texasag1969 said:

I think I pretty well separated running abilities from throwing abilities. Nowhere did I claim he would be a success, only that he could run even against NFL speed.

Only, Lamar doesn't run a 4.3.   He doesn't have the first step or lateral movement of Vick.    Nobody has since and chances are you won't see that in our lifetime.

Also, Vicks success against NFL defenses from 2001 vs  2010 was rather up and down.    The athletic premium put on the other side of the ball to stop or limit these runners has really been quite impressive over the last 10 years.    Do we think of Vick as 'Vick' if he started playing 10 years later vs 2000?   Me thinks not so much.  

[boo fagley]

@tiamat63 said:

Only, Lamar doesn't run a 4.3.   He doesn't have the first step or lateral movement of Vick.    Nobody has since and chances are you won't see that in our lifetime.

Also, Vicks success against NFL defenses from 2001 vs  2010 was rather up and down.    The athletic premium put on the other side of the ball to stop or limit these runners has really been quite impressive over the last 10 years.    Do we think of Vick as 'Vick' if he started playing 10 years later vs 2000?   Me thinks not so much.  

The way to defend these types is keep them in the pocket and force them to throw.

Make them play patient which they hate because they are used to bang - bang plays and making things happen out of no play.

[SD_Tom]

He claims he's a 4.3 guy,  but who knows? He can definitely fly,  but they all over estimate.  It's not just his speed,  it's the agility and fakes.  

Impossible to not see the potential to be very good. He's got some time to sit,  and they can eventually create an offense around him. He's a next level athlete and can sling the ball. Colin Kapernick almost went to the super bowl.  No reason a guy like Lamar couldn't get there if he's able to develop.  Petrino supposedly has him way more nfl ready than people give him credit for.  

[Dutch Oven]

I'll still take a QB who can stand in the pocket, keep his eyes downfield while the pass rush is around him, process the play, make his reads, and consistently deliver an accurate, on-time pass over athletic one-read and run QBs all day long. The NFL has consistently caught up with the latter. 

[boo fagley]

@dutch-oven said:

I'll still take a QB who can stand in the pocket, keep his eyes downfield while the pass rush is around him, process the play, make his reads, and consistently deliver an accurate, on-time pass over athletic one-read and run QBs all day long. The NFL has consistently caught up with the latter. 

Its a passing league.

A RB can get beat to death, but lay off a WR and QB.. The NFL wants scoring. Fans like scoring. A soccer match is painful to watch with so little scoring some games.

[TexasAg1969]

@dutch-oven said:

I'll still take a QB who can stand in the pocket, keep his eyes downfield while the pass rush is around him, process the play, make his reads, and consistently deliver an accurate, on-time pass over athletic one-read and run QBs all day long. The NFL has consistently caught up with the latter. 

Are we talking about Jackson or Josh Allen?

[Tour2ma]

@dutch-oven said:

I'll still take a QB who can stand in the pocket, keep his eyes downfield while the pass rush is around him, process the play, make his reads, and consistently deliver an accurate, on-time pass over athletic one-read and run QBs all day long. The NFL has consistently caught up with the latter. 

And who was that at either of the Ravens' two 1st-round picks?

@the-cysko-kid said:

And what did Vick ever accomplish?

More than about 75% of his contemporaries?

Was Vick the ideal QB? Not in my book, but he made teams competitive, especially early in his career in ATL, where he was "rode hard and put up wet." After his "hiatus" Andy Reid came close to mainlining him, but by then age and injury were dragging him down.

Jackson has a chance to develop as a QB... a chance to be good. We've wasted higher picks on QBs with far less of a chance.

[The Cysko Kid]

@tour2ma said:

And who was that at either of the Ravens' two 1st-round picks?

More than about 75% of his contemporaries?

Was Vick the ideal QB? Not in my book, but he made teams competitive, especially early in his career in ATL, where he was "rode hard and put up wet." After his "hiatus" Andy Reid came close to mainlining him, but by then age and injury were dragging him down.

Jackson has a chance to develop as a QB... a chance to be good. We've wasted higher picks on QBs with far less of a chance.

So...nothing 

[hoorta]

@sd_tom said:

He claims he's a 4.3 guy,  but who knows? He can definitely fly,  but they all over estimate.  It's not just his speed,  it's the agility and fakes.  

Impossible to not see the potential to be very good. He's got some time to sit,  and they can eventually create an offense around him. He's a next level athlete and can sling the ball. Colin Kapernick almost went to the super bowl.  No reason a guy like Lamar couldn't get there if he's able to develop.  Petrino supposedly has him way more nfl ready than people give him credit for.  

I suppose we'll never know Jackson's 40 time, since he refuse to get clocked for it at either the Combine or his pro day. As far as agility and fakes, that's running back or wr territory, not qb. None of the top 10 qbs (save Russell Wilson) are noted for their mobility. And Wilson only runs when he has to. 

Sure, Jackson looks great running against college defenses, let's emphasize he won't be able to do that on a regular basis in the pros- he doesn't have the 230 pound build of Saquon Barkley

How long did RG III (same size as Lamar) last  being a "runnning" quarterback? 

It pretty much shocked me because I thought Baker Mayfield looked pretty fast when he ran at Oklahoma, and then only put up a 4.8 at the Combine. 

[Tour2ma]

@the-cysko-kid said:

So...nothing 

Sure... 13 years and 4 Pro Bowls of "nothing"...

[Louisville Slugger]

@hoorta said:

I suppose we'll never know Jackson's 40 time, since he refuse to get clocked for it at either the Combine or his pro day. As far as agility and fakes, that's running back or wr territory, not qb. None of the top 10 qbs (save Russell Wilson) are noted for their mobility. And Wilson only runs when he has to. 

Sure, Jackson looks great running against college defenses, let's emphasize he won't be able to do that on a regular basis in the pros- he doesn't have the 230 pound build of Saquon Barkley

How long did RG III (same size as Lamar) last  being a "runnning" quarterback? 

It pretty much shocked me because I thought Baker Mayfield looked pretty fast when he ran at Oklahoma, and then only put up a 4.8 at the Combine. 

Comparing Lamar to rg3 is just lazy. They ran completely different offenses. Lamar has never been hurt. Lamar has shown he's not just fast but an elite ball carrier. The sports science guys even said only 75% of his rushing yards came from designed runs. He is a pass first QB. His speed absolutey translates into the NFL. I have no problem sticking my neck out and saying he will be a very good QB. He will have a cam Newton type effect on Baltimore