Gerald McCoy/ Mike Daniels
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I share your concern about Corbett Tour- but.
In that regard I give you Exhibit A: Cam "Turnstile" Erving, who the majority of us would have helped buy his plane ticket out of town he sucked so bad. Turns out he became at least a respectable starter for the Chiefs- much to my (and probably everyone else's) amazement.
Nuh uh.
https://www.profootballfocus.com/nfl/players/cam-erving/9452
He is easily the worst player on a medicore Oline that had the benefit of having a gunslinger QB, Tyreek Hill, Kareem Hunt, Sammy Watkins, Chris Conley and Travis Kelce to cover up the smell of their below average play. Mitch Morse is gone so if Cam is on the Chiefs Oline now, with the loss of their best weapons, he's going to get fucked up and down the field. As the Pats so clearly showed this in the post season.
Nuh uh.
https://www.profootballfocus.com/nfl/players/cam-erving/9452
He is easily the worst player on a medicore Oline that had the benefit of having a gunslinger QB, Tyreek Hill, Kareem Hunt, Sammy Watkins, Chris Conley and Travis Kelce to cover up the smell of their below average play. Mitch Morse is gone so if Cam is on the Chiefs Oline now, with the loss of their best weapons, he's going to get fucked up and down the field. As the Pats so clearly showed this in the post season.
I'll accept the correction. But tia, if I'm reading the PFF grade correctly, Cam improved from gawdawful atrocious to "below average".
That is improvement.
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how has corbett been struggling?
how has corbett been struggling?
Well, nobody REALLY knows that he's struggling because the pads aren't on, but Corbett was given every chance to cement the starting position left vacant by Zeitler, and by all accounts he simply hasn't done that. I believe I read that Corbett is playing a lot of "2nd team center", and he appears to be a better fit there.
Now again, this is without pads, so how much can you really observe? I will say this, most fans I know of were NOT pleased by the Corbett selection, and while Dorsey has proven himself to be a good talent evaluator, there was definitely concern that he tried to be too smart for his own good. After all, the first pick of the 2nd round is a VERY desirable selection, and when you're a team that was literally 0-16 picking there....you don't get cute. You don't draft for depth. You draft a starter at a needed position.
I liked Zeitler, a lot. He was extremely physical and that's something I place a very high emphasis on, especially in our division. Here's an exercise for you. Look up images for Corbett and look up images for Zeitler. Zeitler looks like Albino Kong, whereas Corbett looks like the fat kid in high school that hides salami sandwiches in cargo shorts pockets.
What does all this mean? Not a dang thing. We're not going to know anything about Corbett until pads come on and he's truly tested. Would I rather him be grabbing the bull by the horn and own the starting role in OTA's? Absolutely, but I also know that Dorsey knows more about football than I ever will, so hopefully he's right once again.
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You make an interesting point jiggins, and many people who follow the Browns thought that Corbett was going to be the eventual replacement for Tretter at center, not Zeitler at guard.
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If we can't run effectively, then we goes nowhere in 2019.
Zeitler also allowed the lowest pressure per snap rate in the league for guards last season [bitonio #3 least].. this justifies all the FA OL good at passpro.
Chubb last season had the most yards per snap after contact of any RB since PFF started charting.. and even if that stat reverts to the mean [One, nobody we plug in would be as good as Zeitler and Two, Chubb had a once-in-a-lifetime season last year] I won't be shocked if we don't appear to "run effectively" next season.
Zeitler also allowed the lowest pressure per snap rate in the league for guards last season [bitonio #3 least].. this justifies all the FA OL good at passpro.
Chubb last season had the most yards per snap after contact of any RB since PFF started charting.. and even if that stat reverts to the mean [One, nobody we plug in would be as good as Zeitler and Two, Chubb had a once-in-a-lifetime season last year] I won't be shocked if we don't appear to "run effectively" next season.
Thanks for sharing your research about Zeitler!
That said, nobody is saying they didn't appreciate him any more than any non-troll said they didn't appreciate Joe Thomas. What I'm saying is if we can overcome the losses of Joe Thomas and the RT in 2018; there's no reason we can't overcome the loss of Zeitler in 2019.
While PFF is a good tool to use - it doesn't mean you should stop watching what's unfolding in front of you and surrender all your opinions to it. The reasons a lot of defenders have to resort to arm tackles that talented RBs can easily break is because they have often been blocked well enough to either be out of position or have other parts of their body preoccupied with trying to disengage from blockers. Chubb's been putting great after contact results on film since his freshman year in the SEC blended with better stop watch speed than Sony Michel to make Dorsey interested enough to draft him in upper round 2. That didn't start with Zeitler while we're happy it continued behind our line. Like I said in the Corbett thread, nothing about 5.2 yards per carry from our rookie RB with 996 rush yards & 8 rush TDs while only starting 9 games reflected a weak offensive line. And if we had a rookie QB breaking the record for TD passes as a rookie - what part of that reflects our line is weak?
The Browns were winless in 2017 and that continued in 2018 before Baker came in and erased a deficit against the Jets. I think it's more than a coincidence the Browns went from winless to 7-6 in all games Baker played in. What changed, in particular, for our offensive line was their challenge went from unreasonable to doable. Because we had a QB getting rid of the ball quickly and accurately - the pass pro ratings of Bitonio, Zeitler, and Tretter inevitably improved. Meanwhile that was also lowering defensive volume in the box also helping our line to the extent our stats in the running game improved quite a bit. That had to improve the run blocking ratings of our interior as well. Once upon a time Greg Robinson could barely play 1 interior line position on the right side in St Louis so I'm guessing some of this helped him too...
Having said all that, here's the doabilities our offensive line still had to focus on: Being first to contact and beating defenders to the punch/position and area (which should favor guys that know the count and where the play is going); ideal pad height up top and ideal base below for good leverage and preventing over-extension; and staying with the guy until after the pass is gone or it's an ideal time to block someone in the next tier. Anyone remember that training camp video of Myles Garrett getting pissed at Greg Robinson? That wasn't his own asss breath he got sick of... As they had to replace both Offensive Tackles in 2018 - I never got the impression they looked weak doing so. That said, there were times I felt they could have and should have been more consistent like any other area of the team. In response to 1 of those times after a forgettable outing in Tampa, Greg Robinson got a chance to replace the undrafted FA Harrison (who was sick) at the right time to play the best football of his career in the LT spot nobody could have envisioned (where we once had the reliability of 10 consecutive Pro Bowl efforts). Not bad considering the idea to yank Bitonio out of niche and comfort zone or going with Harrison was worse. Hollywood may have this looking like the next Jed Clampett struck oil; but someone in our FO had the wherewithal to realize maybe all this former 2nd overall talent needs is the right opportunity at the right time. Land ho!
Right now, there's an opening for a starting job at RG that some candidates with recent starting experience were brought here to compete for. There's also a rookie (Forbes) that put excellent trapping and pulling skills on tape while various workouts have him ranking with elite in tests that measured explosion. Everything I spoke about regarding the doabilities in the last paragraph, he can do. The best record we ever had with the trio of Thomas, Mack and Schwartz was 7-9. Now that the line we had last year helped us improve from 0-16 to 7-8-1 while our rookie QB broke the record for TD passes as our rookie RB averaged 5.2 yards per carry - people are arguing that the offensive line is weak? There's an old saying if you fail to prepare then you should prepare to fail. I don't think anyone failed to prepare for the opening at RG to blend with the 80% of our line returning...
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ansah still hasnt signed anywhere? well, i was high on ansah before we signed vernon...ansah's starter money so not gonna pay that now. 9'ers are shopping siloman thomas who's got 2 more years left on rookie deal....dorsey oughta look at that.
ansah still hasnt signed anywhere? well, i was high on ansah before we signed vernon...ansah's starter money so not gonna pay that now. 9'ers are shopping siloman thomas who's got 2 more years left on rookie deal....dorsey oughta look at that.
I thought you were high on something else champ.
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ansah still hasnt signed anywhere? well, i was high on ansah before we signed vernon...ansah's starter money so not gonna pay that now. 9'ers are shopping siloman thomas who's got 2 more years left on rookie deal....dorsey oughta look at that.
I thought you were high on something else champ.
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for what?
Hey man how long have you had that???
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I get the above Ogun love... I really do.... but as I wrote in the Depth Chart thread, so far Corbett ain't cutting it in OTAs. So if Ogun's departure results in an upgrade of our OL in return, then it's a move which may need to be made.
If we can't run effectively, then we goes nowhere in 2019.
If we go nowhere in 2019, then this locker room could disintegrate and the window that could have been may never be.
Still plenty of time... Austin or another OG still might emerge and be "adequate", but this kind of thinking has to start now.
I share your concern about Corbett Tour- but.
So, last year the worry about this team was Left Tackle and what had been done to replace Joe Thomas. The concern was we only had Bitonio feeling his best NFL niche is OG, 1 undrafted FA Harrison; and if those didn't work we were going to have to try to tap what the Rams couldn't via former 2nd overall pick Greg Robinson. Who knew the best prize would be behind door #3? This year we shift this worry to RG and what had been done to replace Zeitler. Only this time, it looks like the FO added a few guys that started games in 2018 as well as a promising young prospect like Forbes to set up quite a challenge for the starting job at RG. There's also the possibility Corbett emerges as the guy they thought they drafted, which wouldn't suck. As we've seen over the years, not everyone emerges immediately especially on the offensive line. This year we only have to replace 1 starter on the offensive line compared to replacing 2 starters in 2018 (and 1 of those was a LT with 10 Pro Bowls). I think our FO can do it.
In that regard I give you Exhibit A: Cam "Turnstile" Erving, who the majority of us would have helped buy his plane ticket out of town he sucked so bad. Turns out he became at least a respectable starter for the Chiefs- much to my (and probably everyone else's) amazement.
I share your concern about Corbett Tour- but.
In that regard I give you Exhibit A: Cam "Turnstile" Erving, who the majority of us would have helped buy his plane ticket out of town he sucked so bad. Turns out he became at least a respectable starter for the Chiefs- much to my (and probably everyone else's) amazement.
Speaking of a slow emergence. Once upon a time we signed OG Barry Stokes, who was cut 3-4 times early on in his career. He started at LG on our only playoff team this side of 1999; and played well. We also had another guy (Shaun O'Hara) that was undrafted out of Rutgers in 2000 starting for us on that same line in 2002. Like I said, offensive linemen can get better with experience especially if they're given the chance to do so...
Trench wars don't take place on paper or in PFF Cliff Notes. Never have - never will. It's about how they work together as a unit. Last year, we had a rookie QB set a record for TD passes and a rookie RB average 5.2 yards per carry. Those impressive results from 2 rookies on an NFL learning curve don't reflect a weak line nearly as much as they reflect a balanced attack behind our line.
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I would still expect an offensive lineman taken in the second round to be fighting for a starting spot. Not to mention the fact that the cohesion of the guys on that line is more important than the superstars.
WSS
www.westsidesteve.com www.myspace.com/westsidestevemusic www.cdbaby.com/artist/westsidestevesimmons -
I get the above Ogun love... I really do.... but as I wrote in the Depth Chart thread, so far Corbett ain't cutting it in OTAs. So if Ogun's departure results in an upgrade of our OL in return, then it's a move which may need to be made.
If we can't run effectively, then we goes nowhere in 2019.
If we go nowhere in 2019, then this locker room could disintegrate and the window that could have been may never be.
Still plenty of time... Austin or another OG still might emerge and be "adequate", but this kind of thinking has to start now.
But I don’t think you weaken an Area of strength just to strengthen an area of weakness
But I don’t think you weaken an Area of strength just to strengthen an area of weakness
Yet that is exactly what JD did when he swapped Zeitler for Vernon.
You have to give value to get value.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
I would still expect an offensive lineman taken in the second round to be fighting for a starting spot. Not to mention the fact that the cohesion of the guys on that line is more important than the superstars.
WSS
I would still expect an offensive lineman taken in the second round to be fighting for a starting spot. Not to mention the fact that the cohesion of the guys on that line is more important than the superstars.
WSS
Well...I think that is just what Corbett is doing....fighting for a starting spot. Isn't he?
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But I don’t think you weaken an Area of strength just to strengthen an area of weakness
Yet that is exactly what JD did when he swapped Zeitler for Vernon.
You have to give value to get value.
Yet that is exactly what JD did when he swapped Zeitler for Vernon.
You have to give value to get value.
Maybe he did, and it still remains to be seen if that was the right move.
On the other hand, the trade of Zeitler may be compared to the trade of Carlos Hyde. That trade opened things up for Chubb to become the starting RB. He may see trading Zeitler as a way of opening things up for Corbett....whom, perhaps (like Chubb) he sees as a person with more potential than the person he traded.
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Yet that is exactly what JD did when he swapped Zeitler for Vernon.
You have to give value to get value.
Maybe he did, and it still remains to be seen if that was the right move.
On the other hand, the trade of Zeitler may be compared to the trade of Carlos Hyde. That trade opened things up for Chubb to become the starting RB. He may see trading Zeitler as a way of opening things up for Corbett....whom, perhaps (like Chubb) he sees as a person with more potential than the person he traded.
Maybe he did, and it still remains to be seen if that was the right move.
On the other hand, the trade of Zeitler may be compared to the trade of Carlos Hyde. That trade opened things up for Chubb to become the starting RB. He may see trading Zeitler as a way of opening things up for Corbett....whom, perhaps (like Chubb) he sees as a person with more potential than the person he traded.
Minus the fact that Chubb had already taken meaningful regular season snaps and flashed when doing so.
Not your finest equivalency.
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Maybe he did, and it still remains to be seen if that was the right move.
On the other hand, the trade of Zeitler may be compared to the trade of Carlos Hyde. That trade opened things up for Chubb to become the starting RB. He may see trading Zeitler as a way of opening things up for Corbett....whom, perhaps (like Chubb) he sees as a person with more potential than the person he traded.
Minus the fact that Chubb had already taken meaningful regular season snaps and flashed when doing so.
Not your finest equivalency.
Minus the fact that Chubb had already taken meaningful regular season snaps and flashed when doing so.
Not your finest equivalency.
Well...remains to be seen. And it wouldn't be my equivalency...it would be Dorsey's. Lets just say that because he apparently felt that Zeitler was expendable that he must have had some idea that he had a plan to have a quality replacement available for him.
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Yet that is exactly what JD did when he swapped Zeitler for Vernon.
You have to give value to get value.
Maybe he did, and it still remains to be seen if that was the right move.
On the other hand, the trade of Zeitler may be compared to the trade of Carlos Hyde. That trade opened things up for Chubb to become the starting RB. He may see trading Zeitler as a way of opening things up for Corbett....whom, perhaps (like Chubb) he sees as a person with more potential than the person he traded.
Maybe he did, and it still remains to be seen if that was the right move.
Or fighting for the job as the second-string center
On the other hand, the trade of Zeitler may be compared to the trade of Carlos Hyde. That trade opened things up for Chubb to become the starting RB. He may see trading Zeitler as a way of opening things up for Corbett....whom, perhaps (like Chubb) he sees as a person with more potential than the person he traded.
So you think that's the most likely scenario? Or just yapping to hear to hear yourself yapp? ?
WSS
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Maybe he did, and it still remains to be seen if that was the right move.
Or fighting for the job as the second-string center
On the other hand, the trade of Zeitler may be compared to the trade of Carlos Hyde. That trade opened things up for Chubb to become the starting RB. He may see trading Zeitler as a way of opening things up for Corbett....whom, perhaps (like Chubb) he sees as a person with more potential than the person he traded.
So you think that's the most likely scenario? Or just yapping to hear to hear yourself yapp? ?
WSS
Well, I have certainly gone out of my way to listen to you yap just to hear yourself yap enough in my life. Haven't I.
But really...give it some thought. Do you really think that Dorsey let Zeitler go if he did not think that he had a plan to adequately replace him?
Or do you think it is just a case of Dorsey dumping someone who he was thinking was not "my guy" for someone who is "my guy"....regardless of the respective talents? (It would not be the first or last time an NFL GM did that)
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for what?
Hey man how long have you had that???
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how long have i had what?
I think he is talking about your crush on Ziggy Ansah.
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