Official: Lee to Phillies
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I'm not underestimating Carrasco. He is the only part of the deal that I do like. If this deal would have been for just Lee, I wouldn't mind it as much. But to have to throw in Francisco too is rediculous. Cliff Lee is a Cy Young winner and clearly a true #1 starter. Yes Carrasco may end up being good, but why add a SS and a C? Asdrubal Cabrera is locked in at SS and we have plenty of catching prospects, all of which have more power than Marson! Knapp is at least 2 years away! Another single A pitching prospect. How many more are we going to acquire before the trade deadline? That's already 3. In 2-4 years, how many of them will actually pan out? If they all do then great, but I want this team to actually improve something that will make a difference in 2010.
I kinda thought Francisco was just in the way for our young outfield at AAA.
I think throwing him in was very similar to the Garko trade, just to make room for LaPorta or Crowe or someone else.
His main value to us was that he could play center but so can Crowe or Brantley.
I kinda thought Francisco was just in the way for our young outfield at AAA.
I think throwing him in was very similar to the Garko trade, just to make room for LaPorta or Crowe or someone else.
His main value to us was that he could play center but so can Crowe or Brantley.
We could've gotten a little more than a catcher we don't need and a SS that is hitting .236 in AAA.
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I kinda thought Francisco was just in the way for our young outfield at AAA.
I think throwing him in was very similar to the Garko trade, just to make room for LaPorta or Crowe or someone else.
His main value to us was that he could play center but so can Crowe or Brantley.
We could've gotten a little more than a catcher we don't need and a SS that is hitting .236 in AAA.
We could've gotten a little more than a catcher we don't need and a SS that is hitting .236 in AAA.
Ya those two pieces I don't get either.
It's amost like Lee for the two pitchers and then Francisco for the two throw ins.
Neither look like good trades for us.
I guess we'll see.
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Seems like a savvy move by Shapiro to get the SS and C, although he could've definitely just been over ambitious.
Jayson Stark says Marson is now the "heir apparent" to Victor, which is pretty insane considering how Santana's playing, but consider how many teams need catchers, and shortstops. They're two premium positions, and both of those players are pretty close to the majors. It's good for insurance and helps Columbus, but could also be huge giving us some nice trade chips.
And definitely getting two impact, front of the rotation starters is nothing to scoff at...even if one is only 18.
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For what it's worth, Keith Law had Jason Donald ranked #48 in his top 100 prospects before this season.
48 Jason Donald - SS - Philadelphia Phillies
TOP '08 LEVEL: AA (Reading)
Donald has no star potential, but he's major-league ready and could be a solid-average shortstop in 2009 if he had the opportunity.
He's a line-drive hitter who uses the whole field well and has good patience, although he can open up a little early and get on top of the ball or swing over it entirely. He has a little loft in his swing but will probably max out around 15-20 homers barring a major increase in strength. His arm is average for short, he gets good reads on ground balls, and is very good on the double play both as a shortstop and on the pivot as a second baseman.
The Phillies' system has players with more upside, like Dominic Brown and Michael Taylor, but Donald's ability to play in the majors right now makes him a valuable property, both to the Phillies if they ask him to fill in for Chase Utley and to other clubs if the Phillies decide to trade him.
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His arm is average for short, he gets good reads on ground balls, and is very good on the double play both as a shortstop and on the pivot as a second baseman.
This is what I am thinking they like the most.
Sounds like he is going to compete to be our future second baseman and is insurance as a backup SS.
Maybe you're right about the tripe stockpiling young talent just to have it, maybe if they find themselves in the Phillies position in 2-3 years.
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never trade a bird in the hand for two in the bush.
Basically Shapiro has given up on the club in the immediate future.
Stupidest trade ever.
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And for the people (ESPN talking heads included) that think we got fleeced because none of these guys were in the Blue Jays rumors....here's how Baseball America ranked the top 10 Phillies prospects this year.
1. Dominic Brown, of
2. Carlos Carrasco, rhp
3. Lou Marson, c
4. Jason Donald, ss
5. Kyle Drabek, rhp
6. Michael Taylor, of
7. Travis D'Arnaud, c
8. Zach Collier, of
9. J.A. Happ, lhp
10. Jason Knapp, rhp
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never trade a bird in the hand for two in the bush.
Basically Shapiro has given up on the club in the immediate future.
Stupidest trade ever.
never trade a bird in the hand for two in the bush.
Basically Shapiro has given up on the club in the immediate future.
Stupidest trade ever.
We're not going anywhere this year. Would you rather have a year of Cliff Lee while we're rebuilding and bringing all our young guys up, then see him walk in free agency?
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never trade a bird in the hand for two in the bush.
Basically Shapiro has given up on the club in the immediate future.
Stupidest trade ever.
We're not going anywhere this year. Would you rather have a year of Cliff Lee while we're rebuilding and bringing all our young guys up, then see him walk in free agency?
We're not going anywhere this year. Would you rather have a year of Cliff Lee while we're rebuilding and bringing all our young guys up, then see him walk in free agency?
I'd rather see Lee here for the next few years. I'd rather see the Tribe management step up and pay our own guys to stay here. I'd rather or management go out and sign a big name or two in the offseason and get the fans and the hometown back into the game. I'd rather win a World Series than have our season over by July. I'd rather hold on to our own guys until the best time to trade them...if this were the LAST year of his contract, I wouldn't be as pissed off. But we had him for another whole season. Instead of having a chance next year, our season looks like it may be done in April. I'd rather watch a team that is competitive...so I'll keep going to Lake Erie Crushers games out in Avon. I'd rather Dolan sell the team to someone that will give a damn about the team and the fans!
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We're not going anywhere this year. Would you rather have a year of Cliff Lee while we're rebuilding and bringing all our young guys up, then see him walk in free agency?
I'd rather see Lee here for the next few years. I'd rather see the Tribe management step up and pay our own guys to stay here. I'd rather or management go out and sign a big name or two in the offseason and get the fans and the hometown back into the game. I'd rather win a World Series than have our season over by July. I'd rather hold on to our own guys until the best time to trade them...if this were the LAST year of his contract, I wouldn't be as pissed off. But we had him for another whole season. Instead of having a chance next year, our season looks like it may be done in April. I'd rather watch a team that is competitive...so I'll keep going to Lake Erie Crushers games out in Avon. I'd rather Dolan sell the team to someone that will give a damn about the team and the fans!
I'd rather see Lee here for the next few years. I'd rather see the Tribe management step up and pay our own guys to stay here. I'd rather or management go out and sign a big name or two in the offseason and get the fans and the hometown back into the game. I'd rather win a World Series than have our season over by July. I'd rather hold on to our own guys until the best time to trade them...if this were the LAST year of his contract, I wouldn't be as pissed off. But we had him for another whole season. Instead of having a chance next year, our season looks like it may be done in April. I'd rather watch a team that is competitive...so I'll keep going to Lake Erie Crushers games out in Avon. I'd rather Dolan sell the team to someone that will give a damn about the team and the fans!
That's all fine...but baseball doesn't work like that.
When the Yankees, Mets, Red Sox, Angels and Dodgers are ready to give pitchers 7 years at $20M per....we don't have any chance to keep up, and before you blame Dolan, neither do 25 other teams. And it's nice to think that we should keep him next year and try to improve...but we're not ready to truly contend. We'd be completely depending on our young players, probably rushing guys like Rondon and Santana and Weglarz to help out and still wouldn't have a roster that could stack up to the world series contenders.
We're built as a long-term team right now, and I don't think one year of Cliff Lee would do anything to change that.
When we have Rondon and Carrasco now as true front of the rotation starters, LaPorta, Santana and Weglarz as big time, middle of the order hitters, Brantley as a great leadoff guy, and plenty of young, powerful bullpen arms...we're building something truly competitive. No reason to waste more great years from a guy like Cliff when we don't have any real shot to do anything.
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I think we will have to wait and see what we get for Martinez, Peralta, Shoppach, Pavano, etc. before we rate our trades.
Before the Derosa trade we had very little in terms of young pitching and in two trades (Given we lost our ace), we picked up four very good young pitchers.
If we can get a Grade A or a couple Grade B pitching prospects for Martinez then we have turned a weakness into a strength for the future.
Our offense is going to be at least average and probably better for a long time so adding a lot of young pitching talent by trading away players we won't be able to hold on to in the future anyway is a good idea.
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I'd rather see Lee here for the next few years. I'd rather see the Tribe management step up and pay our own guys to stay here. I'd rather or management go out and sign a big name or two in the offseason and get the fans and the hometown back into the game. I'd rather win a World Series than have our season over by July. I'd rather hold on to our own guys until the best time to trade them...if this were the LAST year of his contract, I wouldn't be as pissed off. But we had him for another whole season. Instead of having a chance next year, our season looks like it may be done in April. I'd rather watch a team that is competitive...so I'll keep going to Lake Erie Crushers games out in Avon. I'd rather Dolan sell the team to someone that will give a damn about the team and the fans!
That's all fine...but baseball doesn't work like that.
When the Yankees, Mets, Red Sox, Angels and Dodgers are ready to give pitchers 7 years at $20M per....we don't have any chance to keep up, and before you blame Dolan, neither do 25 other teams. And it's nice to think that we should keep him next year and try to improve...but we're not ready to truly contend. We'd be completely depending on our young players, probably rushing guys like Rondon and Santana and Weglarz to help out and still wouldn't have a roster that could stack up to the world series contenders.
We're built as a long-term team right now, and I don't think one year of Cliff Lee would do anything to change that.
When we have Rondon and Carrasco now as true front of the rotation starters, LaPorta, Santana and Weglarz as big time, middle of the order hitters, Brantley as a great leadoff guy, and plenty of young, powerful bullpen arms...we're building something truly competitive. No reason to waste more great years from a guy like Cliff when we don't have any real shot to do anything.
That's all fine...but baseball doesn't work like that.
When the Yankees, Mets, Red Sox, Angels and Dodgers are ready to give pitchers 7 years at $20M per....we don't have any chance to keep up, and before you blame Dolan, neither do 25 other teams. And it's nice to think that we should keep him next year and try to improve...but we're not ready to truly contend. We'd be completely depending on our young players, probably rushing guys like Rondon and Santana and Weglarz to help out and still wouldn't have a roster that could stack up to the world series contenders.
We're built as a long-term team right now, and I don't think one year of Cliff Lee would do anything to change that.
When we have Rondon and Carrasco now as true front of the rotation starters, LaPorta, Santana and Weglarz as big time, middle of the order hitters, Brantley as a great leadoff guy, and plenty of young, powerful bullpen arms...we're building something truly competitive. No reason to waste more great years from a guy like Cliff when we don't have any real shot to do anything.
the problem is that they've been trading away veterans for prospects the minute Shapiro took the reigns. 0 world series apperances amd one alcs appearance and one playoff appearance and another season where they cam close. All we keep hearing is "in two or three years". It's perpetual. When one of Shapiro's recruits he trades for does work out they just get traded away because so many of them do not work out and we are ALWAYS building for 2-3 years down the road.
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For one, before Shapiro, when the Indians did pay guys to come here, and stay here, they sold out every home game for like 6 years running. That's a lot of cash for the team to spend. I don't know if you've been to a game the last few years, but even in 2007, there were a lot of empty seats.
These kinds of moves have to be done when you're a team like the Indians. Basically when you're NOT a team in NY, Boston, LA. The Indians can afford to spend max $80 mil a year, and that's in a year they're trying to win a WS.
This is the way baseball works. Financially, teams that bring in a lot more money, can pay above market value for players they need or want. The Indians can't give CC $25mil a year because in order to do that, 6 of the guys in the field behind him, have to be bums making the minimum.
By loading up the system with young guys with lots of potential, you get some good young players joining the MLB team around the same timeframe. The Indians will control the salaries of these players for several years, which in an ideal situation, you're getting a lot more production for the money you have to pay out. This affords the team the ability to go out, and sign a big name or two to put them over the top, or trade some MiLB guys for the guy you need.
The only complaint I have on Shapiro is that he doesn't draft well. The organization has concentrated more on low risk, moderate reward pitching, and overloaded at guys who don't have a real position. Without making trades to offset these problems, this year, you're looking at a much much longer rebuilding process.
And this is a division where the Indians will never be far away from winning it. Just aren't any dominant teams in the central.
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I think we all know how the theory works. But we all also see the limited success it is brnging to the field.
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I'm not underestimating Carrasco. He is the only part of the deal that I do like. If this deal would have been for just Lee, I wouldn't mind it as much. But to have to throw in Francisco too is rediculous. Cliff Lee is a Cy Young winner and clearly a true #1 starter. Yes Carrasco may end up being good, but why add a SS and a C? Asdrubal Cabrera is locked in at SS and we have plenty of catching prospects, all of which have more power than Marson! Knapp is at least 2 years away! Another single A pitching prospect. How many more are we going to acquire before the trade deadline? That's already 3. In 2-4 years, how many of them will actually pan out? If they all do then great, but I want this team to actually improve something that will make a difference in 2010.
I kinda thought Francisco was just in the way for our young outfield at AAA.
I think throwing him in was very similar to the Garko trade, just to make room for LaPorta or Crowe or someone else.
His main value to us was that he could play center but so can Crowe or Brantley.
I kinda thought Francisco was just in the way for our young outfield at AAA.
I think throwing him in was very similar to the Garko trade, just to make room for LaPorta or Crowe or someone else.
His main value to us was that he could play center but so can Crowe or Brantley.
I thought the same thing. Truthfully, the *best* thing about this deal to me at first blush was just that, that LaPorta would be in Cleveland. The rest? Oof. It's hard to judge kids and all that, but this screams of a move made by a team looking to slash payroll.
Beanpot
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For one, before Shapiro, when the Indians did pay guys to come here, and stay here, they sold out every home game for like 6 years running. That's a lot of cash for the team to spend. I don't know if you've been to a game the last few years, but even in 2007, there were a lot of empty seats.
These kinds of moves have to be done when you're a team like the Indians. Basically when you're NOT a team in NY, Boston, LA. The Indians can afford to spend max $80 mil a year, and that's in a year they're trying to win a WS.
This is the way baseball works. Financially, teams that bring in a lot more money, can pay above market value for players they need or want. The Indians can't give CC $25mil a year because in order to do that, 6 of the guys in the field behind him, have to be bums making the minimum.
By loading up the system with young guys with lots of potential, you get some good young players joining the MLB team around the same timeframe. The Indians will control the salaries of these players for several years, which in an ideal situation, you're getting a lot more production for the money you have to pay out. This affords the team the ability to go out, and sign a big name or two to put them over the top, or trade some MiLB guys for the guy you need.
The only complaint I have on Shapiro is that he doesn't draft well. The organization has concentrated more on low risk, moderate reward pitching, and overloaded at guys who don't have a real position. Without making trades to offset these problems, this year, you're looking at a much much longer rebuilding process.
And this is a division where the Indians will never be far away from winning it. Just aren't any dominant teams in the central.
For one, before Shapiro, when the Indians did pay guys to come here, and stay here, they sold out every home game for like 6 years running. That's a lot of cash for the team to spend. I don't know if you've been to a game the last few years, but even in 2007, there were a lot of empty seats.
These kinds of moves have to be done when you're a team like the Indians. Basically when you're NOT a team in NY, Boston, LA. The Indians can afford to spend max $80 mil a year, and that's in a year they're trying to win a WS.
This is the way baseball works. Financially, teams that bring in a lot more money, can pay above market value for players they need or want. The Indians can't give CC $25mil a year because in order to do that, 6 of the guys in the field behind him, have to be bums making the minimum.
By loading up the system with young guys with lots of potential, you get some good young players joining the MLB team around the same timeframe. The Indians will control the salaries of these players for several years, which in an ideal situation, you're getting a lot more production for the money you have to pay out. This affords the team the ability to go out, and sign a big name or two to put them over the top, or trade some MiLB guys for the guy you need.
The only complaint I have on Shapiro is that he doesn't draft well. The organization has concentrated more on low risk, moderate reward pitching, and overloaded at guys who don't have a real position. Without making trades to offset these problems, this year, you're looking at a much much longer rebuilding process.
And this is a division where the Indians will never be far away from winning it. Just aren't any dominant teams in the central.
I just wanted to do a +1 or whatever it is the kids do these days. Agree with every word.
Beanpot
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I don't really like this trade, I don't think we got enough for Lee. Philly didn't want to give up one of their better prospects, and Shapiro gave them Lee on a silver platter. Shapiro should be on the unemployment line soon. And Wedge should have been fired a long time ago.
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You're underrating Carrasco. 22 years old and already with 26 starts at AAA, he could be in Cleveland in September, definitely in the rotation by 2010.
Low to mid-90s fastball, good slider and changeup, striking out a batter an inning. This guy was untouchable last year, destined to be at the top of the rotation with Cole Hamels. He's struggled this year, but he's still improving and has the stuff to be a real impact player.
Rondon-Carrasco-Carmona(?)-Huff-Laffey is not bad.
You're underrating Carrasco. 22 years old and already with 26 starts at AAA, he could be in Cleveland in September, definitely in the rotation by 2010.
Low to mid-90s fastball, good slider and changeup, striking out a batter an inning. This guy was untouchable last year, destined to be at the top of the rotation with Cole Hamels. He's struggled this year, but he's still improving and has the stuff to be a real impact player.
Rondon-Carrasco-Carmona(?)-Huff-Laffey is not bad.
Really hope you're right. All I know about Carrasco is that he's been a hyped prospect for what seems like several decades. Of course, much of that has to do with getting baby Phillies news all the time here in Clearwater. Knapp is the guy who is giving me a serious man-crush, but Carrasco could be a-ok too.
Beanpot
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This trade did it for me. I don't want to hear "middle market", "small market", minor leaguer's potential, yada-yada. Dolan has NO business owning a professional sports franchise. The trade is NOT about obtaining "can't miss" talent. It's about dumping the salary of a proven, successful player. I have said it before & I'll say it again....the Tribe goes NOWHERE as long as Dolan owns them!
Personally, I will not attend, watch on TV, or listen on the radio to another Indians game until that loser sells the team. My prayer is Dan Gilbert or someone like him buys them. If that happens, I'll be back. I have been a loyal fan for 53 of my almost 63 years, but this guy is the Ted Stepien of baseball.
I'll probably follow this thread, but that's it.
So long tribe!
Mike
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