Official: Lee to Phillies
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I think we will have to wait and see what we get for Martinez, Peralta, Shoppach, Pavano, etc. before we rate our trades.
Before the Derosa trade we had very little in terms of young pitching and in two trades (Given we lost our ace), we picked up four very good young pitchers.
If we can get a Grade A or a couple Grade B pitching prospects for Martinez then we have turned a weakness into a strength for the future.
Our offense is going to be at least average and probably better for a long time so adding a lot of young pitching talent by trading away players we won't be able to hold on to in the future anyway is a good idea.
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I'd rather see Lee here for the next few years. I'd rather see the Tribe management step up and pay our own guys to stay here. I'd rather or management go out and sign a big name or two in the offseason and get the fans and the hometown back into the game. I'd rather win a World Series than have our season over by July. I'd rather hold on to our own guys until the best time to trade them...if this were the LAST year of his contract, I wouldn't be as pissed off. But we had him for another whole season. Instead of having a chance next year, our season looks like it may be done in April. I'd rather watch a team that is competitive...so I'll keep going to Lake Erie Crushers games out in Avon. I'd rather Dolan sell the team to someone that will give a damn about the team and the fans!
That's all fine...but baseball doesn't work like that.
When the Yankees, Mets, Red Sox, Angels and Dodgers are ready to give pitchers 7 years at $20M per....we don't have any chance to keep up, and before you blame Dolan, neither do 25 other teams. And it's nice to think that we should keep him next year and try to improve...but we're not ready to truly contend. We'd be completely depending on our young players, probably rushing guys like Rondon and Santana and Weglarz to help out and still wouldn't have a roster that could stack up to the world series contenders.
We're built as a long-term team right now, and I don't think one year of Cliff Lee would do anything to change that.
When we have Rondon and Carrasco now as true front of the rotation starters, LaPorta, Santana and Weglarz as big time, middle of the order hitters, Brantley as a great leadoff guy, and plenty of young, powerful bullpen arms...we're building something truly competitive. No reason to waste more great years from a guy like Cliff when we don't have any real shot to do anything.
That's all fine...but baseball doesn't work like that.
When the Yankees, Mets, Red Sox, Angels and Dodgers are ready to give pitchers 7 years at $20M per....we don't have any chance to keep up, and before you blame Dolan, neither do 25 other teams. And it's nice to think that we should keep him next year and try to improve...but we're not ready to truly contend. We'd be completely depending on our young players, probably rushing guys like Rondon and Santana and Weglarz to help out and still wouldn't have a roster that could stack up to the world series contenders.
We're built as a long-term team right now, and I don't think one year of Cliff Lee would do anything to change that.
When we have Rondon and Carrasco now as true front of the rotation starters, LaPorta, Santana and Weglarz as big time, middle of the order hitters, Brantley as a great leadoff guy, and plenty of young, powerful bullpen arms...we're building something truly competitive. No reason to waste more great years from a guy like Cliff when we don't have any real shot to do anything.
the problem is that they've been trading away veterans for prospects the minute Shapiro took the reigns. 0 world series apperances amd one alcs appearance and one playoff appearance and another season where they cam close. All we keep hearing is "in two or three years". It's perpetual. When one of Shapiro's recruits he trades for does work out they just get traded away because so many of them do not work out and we are ALWAYS building for 2-3 years down the road.
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For one, before Shapiro, when the Indians did pay guys to come here, and stay here, they sold out every home game for like 6 years running. That's a lot of cash for the team to spend. I don't know if you've been to a game the last few years, but even in 2007, there were a lot of empty seats.
These kinds of moves have to be done when you're a team like the Indians. Basically when you're NOT a team in NY, Boston, LA. The Indians can afford to spend max $80 mil a year, and that's in a year they're trying to win a WS.
This is the way baseball works. Financially, teams that bring in a lot more money, can pay above market value for players they need or want. The Indians can't give CC $25mil a year because in order to do that, 6 of the guys in the field behind him, have to be bums making the minimum.
By loading up the system with young guys with lots of potential, you get some good young players joining the MLB team around the same timeframe. The Indians will control the salaries of these players for several years, which in an ideal situation, you're getting a lot more production for the money you have to pay out. This affords the team the ability to go out, and sign a big name or two to put them over the top, or trade some MiLB guys for the guy you need.
The only complaint I have on Shapiro is that he doesn't draft well. The organization has concentrated more on low risk, moderate reward pitching, and overloaded at guys who don't have a real position. Without making trades to offset these problems, this year, you're looking at a much much longer rebuilding process.
And this is a division where the Indians will never be far away from winning it. Just aren't any dominant teams in the central.
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I think we all know how the theory works. But we all also see the limited success it is brnging to the field.
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I'm not underestimating Carrasco. He is the only part of the deal that I do like. If this deal would have been for just Lee, I wouldn't mind it as much. But to have to throw in Francisco too is rediculous. Cliff Lee is a Cy Young winner and clearly a true #1 starter. Yes Carrasco may end up being good, but why add a SS and a C? Asdrubal Cabrera is locked in at SS and we have plenty of catching prospects, all of which have more power than Marson! Knapp is at least 2 years away! Another single A pitching prospect. How many more are we going to acquire before the trade deadline? That's already 3. In 2-4 years, how many of them will actually pan out? If they all do then great, but I want this team to actually improve something that will make a difference in 2010.
I kinda thought Francisco was just in the way for our young outfield at AAA.
I think throwing him in was very similar to the Garko trade, just to make room for LaPorta or Crowe or someone else.
His main value to us was that he could play center but so can Crowe or Brantley.
I kinda thought Francisco was just in the way for our young outfield at AAA.
I think throwing him in was very similar to the Garko trade, just to make room for LaPorta or Crowe or someone else.
His main value to us was that he could play center but so can Crowe or Brantley.
I thought the same thing. Truthfully, the *best* thing about this deal to me at first blush was just that, that LaPorta would be in Cleveland. The rest? Oof. It's hard to judge kids and all that, but this screams of a move made by a team looking to slash payroll.
Beanpot
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For one, before Shapiro, when the Indians did pay guys to come here, and stay here, they sold out every home game for like 6 years running. That's a lot of cash for the team to spend. I don't know if you've been to a game the last few years, but even in 2007, there were a lot of empty seats.
These kinds of moves have to be done when you're a team like the Indians. Basically when you're NOT a team in NY, Boston, LA. The Indians can afford to spend max $80 mil a year, and that's in a year they're trying to win a WS.
This is the way baseball works. Financially, teams that bring in a lot more money, can pay above market value for players they need or want. The Indians can't give CC $25mil a year because in order to do that, 6 of the guys in the field behind him, have to be bums making the minimum.
By loading up the system with young guys with lots of potential, you get some good young players joining the MLB team around the same timeframe. The Indians will control the salaries of these players for several years, which in an ideal situation, you're getting a lot more production for the money you have to pay out. This affords the team the ability to go out, and sign a big name or two to put them over the top, or trade some MiLB guys for the guy you need.
The only complaint I have on Shapiro is that he doesn't draft well. The organization has concentrated more on low risk, moderate reward pitching, and overloaded at guys who don't have a real position. Without making trades to offset these problems, this year, you're looking at a much much longer rebuilding process.
And this is a division where the Indians will never be far away from winning it. Just aren't any dominant teams in the central.
For one, before Shapiro, when the Indians did pay guys to come here, and stay here, they sold out every home game for like 6 years running. That's a lot of cash for the team to spend. I don't know if you've been to a game the last few years, but even in 2007, there were a lot of empty seats.
These kinds of moves have to be done when you're a team like the Indians. Basically when you're NOT a team in NY, Boston, LA. The Indians can afford to spend max $80 mil a year, and that's in a year they're trying to win a WS.
This is the way baseball works. Financially, teams that bring in a lot more money, can pay above market value for players they need or want. The Indians can't give CC $25mil a year because in order to do that, 6 of the guys in the field behind him, have to be bums making the minimum.
By loading up the system with young guys with lots of potential, you get some good young players joining the MLB team around the same timeframe. The Indians will control the salaries of these players for several years, which in an ideal situation, you're getting a lot more production for the money you have to pay out. This affords the team the ability to go out, and sign a big name or two to put them over the top, or trade some MiLB guys for the guy you need.
The only complaint I have on Shapiro is that he doesn't draft well. The organization has concentrated more on low risk, moderate reward pitching, and overloaded at guys who don't have a real position. Without making trades to offset these problems, this year, you're looking at a much much longer rebuilding process.
And this is a division where the Indians will never be far away from winning it. Just aren't any dominant teams in the central.
I just wanted to do a +1 or whatever it is the kids do these days. Agree with every word.
Beanpot
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I don't really like this trade, I don't think we got enough for Lee. Philly didn't want to give up one of their better prospects, and Shapiro gave them Lee on a silver platter. Shapiro should be on the unemployment line soon. And Wedge should have been fired a long time ago.
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You're underrating Carrasco. 22 years old and already with 26 starts at AAA, he could be in Cleveland in September, definitely in the rotation by 2010.
Low to mid-90s fastball, good slider and changeup, striking out a batter an inning. This guy was untouchable last year, destined to be at the top of the rotation with Cole Hamels. He's struggled this year, but he's still improving and has the stuff to be a real impact player.
Rondon-Carrasco-Carmona(?)-Huff-Laffey is not bad.
You're underrating Carrasco. 22 years old and already with 26 starts at AAA, he could be in Cleveland in September, definitely in the rotation by 2010.
Low to mid-90s fastball, good slider and changeup, striking out a batter an inning. This guy was untouchable last year, destined to be at the top of the rotation with Cole Hamels. He's struggled this year, but he's still improving and has the stuff to be a real impact player.
Rondon-Carrasco-Carmona(?)-Huff-Laffey is not bad.
Really hope you're right. All I know about Carrasco is that he's been a hyped prospect for what seems like several decades. Of course, much of that has to do with getting baby Phillies news all the time here in Clearwater. Knapp is the guy who is giving me a serious man-crush, but Carrasco could be a-ok too.
Beanpot
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This trade did it for me. I don't want to hear "middle market", "small market", minor leaguer's potential, yada-yada. Dolan has NO business owning a professional sports franchise. The trade is NOT about obtaining "can't miss" talent. It's about dumping the salary of a proven, successful player. I have said it before & I'll say it again....the Tribe goes NOWHERE as long as Dolan owns them!
Personally, I will not attend, watch on TV, or listen on the radio to another Indians game until that loser sells the team. My prayer is Dan Gilbert or someone like him buys them. If that happens, I'll be back. I have been a loyal fan for 53 of my almost 63 years, but this guy is the Ted Stepien of baseball.
I'll probably follow this thread, but that's it.
So long tribe!
Mike
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Oh I forgot about the biggest problem the Indians have, DOLAN. Just sell the team already so we can get an owner who cares about winning, instead of lining his pockets.
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It's starting to seem like people would rather have an enormous payroll than a winning season.
We paid Hafner. We paid Wood. We paid Westbrook. We locked up Carmona and Sizemore. We've had Victor for over a decade.
The market for starting pitching is absolutely insane now. We weren't going anywhere last year with CC, and we had no chance to sign him. The Brewers decided to ride him to the end, and how did that turn out? A first round exit and nothing in return.
Cleveland is far, far from the only team who can't afford to pay Cy Young winners market value. The Marlins couldn't keep Beckett. The Twins couldn't keep Santana. The A's couldn't keep anyone, but let's just say Dan Haren. The Blue Jays won't be able to keep Halladay.
When you look at it realistically, we weren't going anywhere with Cliff. There aren't enough moves we could've made to contend next year, and we don't have the money to re-sign him. Before you blame Dolan, look around the league and blame baseball for the lack of a salary cap.
We didn't get fair value for Cliff, but no team is going to give up young, major league ready aces for a rental. Getting two solid position players at premium positions, a front of the rotation starter near the bigs, and one potential horse...well, I'll take it.
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CIMO beat me to it, but I was going to say something similar. Far be it for me to question why anyone decides to stop being a fan, but *this* deal hardly seems like something that would push one over the edge. Maybe so if you think it's writing on the wall (tempted to feel this way myself) and that we're in deep financial trouble and sell-offs have been ordered across the board. But not this deal alone.
We were sitting at 42-59 prior to this trade and had given up more runs than any team in the game. Obviously losing Lee isn't going to help those numbers, but we sure as hell weren't going anywhere with him either. That said, I'm dreading the possibilty of sitting here two years from now and trying to feel jazzed about the prospects we got for Sizemore.
Beanpot
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This whole thing with the owner sucks, and he should sell the team. I don't get it. Same thing is said about Lerner and the Browns, and if the Cavs had ups and downs, the same would be said for Gilbert. Sure he spends tons of money on the team, but I'd be willing to bet the Cavs are also the most profitable team in Cleveland. Every game is sold out, nationally televised as much, if not more than any other team in the league. When money is flowing in, an owner can afford to spend it... If the Cavs weren't very good, without money coming in, do you think Gilbert is going to take a ton of money out of his other business, and dump it into the Cavs?
It doesn't matter who owns the Indians. And frankly, the fact that people want the team sold scares the crap out of me. Every time a team is sold, there is no guarantee that the new ownership group won't at least try to relocate.
If you want to give up on the Indians because this is the way it works, I won't try and talk you out of it. God knows there are times I wish I wasn't raised a Cleveland sports fan.
But the team has spent a ton of money trying to get to the WS. Every offseason they have tried to plug the holes they found in the previous season (not a strategy I agree with) and they have signed guys to long term contracts, before they were getting close to arbitration or free agency, so that they could hold on to their talent at a price still below fair value on the open FA market. Unfortunately, Westbrook and Hafner's contracts haven't paid off because of injury, and Sizemore promptly took a 20pt dive in BA (still falling) and continues to strike out 150+ a year in the leadoff spot.
Some things the team has no control over (injuries after contract extensions). What they do have control over is drafting, scouting, signing, trading, and management from top to bottom. I've never been a fan of Wedge and I think his style doesn't fit what Cleveland needs to be doing. I don't have any faith in him to make the right decisions. He goes from letting guys hit their way out of slumps and work through things on the field, to having a different lineup every night and sticking guys in positions they never have, or should have played. I also have little faith in the MiLB staff. Cleveland takes too long to move guys along. But I'm hesitant to start pointing fingers there because that could very well be a result of what Wedge likes with the Indians. Kids get blocked in AA/AAA because he'd rather platoon older, less talented guys.
I could rant forever on baseball, but just in case anyone wants to read my posts, I'll cut it off here
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Here's Law's take on the deal:
Phillies get Lee, give up few high-end assets
For the Phillies, this looks like a steal. In Cliff Lee, they acquire one of the best pitchers in the American League over the past 18 months while retaining their top two prospects and trading four guys who all have serious question marks.
Lee has been the best left-hander in the AL and top-three in the league since the start of the 2008 season, although before that he went off the rails and had to be optioned to the minors in July of 2007. Lee's entire game turned around in 2008, as he picked up some velocity, improved his command and began to work more effectively in the lower half of the zone; he's now a four-pitch guy with command and control who works deep into games. (He has shown a large platoon split this year, with right-handed batters gaining more than 250 points of OPS, but it's out of line with his previous seasons and appears to be a fluke.) His contract includes a $9 million option for 2010 that the Phillies will certainly pick up; even if they decided they couldn't afford to keep him, he's extremely tradeable and they'd probably get value close to what they just gave up to acquire him.
Ben Francisco is a good right-handed bat off the bench who can fill in all over the outfield, but isn't going to produce enough to play every day in an outfield corner. He's a good depth add for the Phillies' bench, which is weak overall and has no viable right-handed bats to sub for a left-handed hitter late in a game.
If there's a problem with the Philly side, it's that they don't need Lee. They came into Wednesday eight games up in the loss column in the National League East standings, with Baseball Prospectus calling them an 83 percent chance to win the division. Lee makes them a better playoff team, but the playoffs are such a crapshoot that any upgrade only makes a team slightly more likely to win any particular series. It's hard to argue with the value proposition, however -- if you can get an underpaid, top-three pitcher in the tougher league without giving up any of your top three prospects, you kind of have to make the trade.
Cleveland's return is going to end up leaning very heavily on 19-year-old right-hander Jason Knapp, who is currently on the shelf with shoulder fatigue. Knapp is a low-three quarters slinger with a shoulder-heavy arm action, landing on a stiff front leg and struggling to close his front shoulder. He's been sitting in the mid-90s this spring, but his curveball and changeup remain below average; it's possible he won't ever have an average curve from that arm slot. The arm strength and the results for a 19-year-old in full-season A-ball are both very impressive, so even with the other concerns he has potential, but he's a high-risk/high-reward guy. Cleveland rarely has guys like this in their system because they tend to draft conservatively, and their best homegrown prospect right now, 20-year-old shortstop Lonnie Chisenhall, was a pick where they broke out of their typical draft philosophy.
The remaining players headed to Cleveland are inventory. Coming into 2009, Jason Donald, 24, projected as either an average defensive shortstop or above-average second baseman; his bat plays at either position but probably won't at third base, and he performed terribly in Triple-A this year before going down with a torn meniscus in his left knee in June, an injury from which he just returned to Triple-A. If the injured left knee was the true cause of his struggles, then it's a good buy-low move for Cleveland. Right-hander Carlos Carrasco is just 22 and has shown an above-average fastball, but he lacks a plus or even above-average secondary pitch, his command is poor and his on-field makeup has been a major question for two years; he doesn't respond well to adversity between the lines and, according to multiple sources, was so upset about seeing his name in trade talks last year that he pulled himself from a start during warm-ups and may have deliberately pitched poorly to try to hurt his trade value. Catcher Lou Marson, 23, makes a lot of contact and controls the strike zone but his swing path takes the bat down to the ball, resulting in a ton of ground balls and therefore little to no power. With Carlos Santana already the catcher of the future in Cleveland, Marson looks like either a future backup or an asset for the Indians to move somewhere else.
At this point it's hard to see any logic for Cleveland to retain Victor Martinez; their chances to contend in 2010 are largely gone because of the dearth of major league-ready starting pitching in the organization, and they're not in a payroll bracket where they're going to go out and buy three-fifths of a playoff rotation. Keeping Martinez, a productive but injury-prone catcher, with Santana and Marson sitting in Triple-A, doesn't make much sense given the front office's evident decision to rebuild.
http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index...;name=law_keith
Beanpot
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CIMO beat me to it, but I was going to say something similar. Far be it for me to question why anyone decides to stop being a fan, but *this* deal hardly seems like something that would push one over the edge. Maybe so if you think it's writing on the wall (tempted to feel this way myself) and that we're in deep financial trouble and sell-offs have been ordered across the board. But not this deal alone.
We were sitting at 42-59 prior to this trade and had given up more runs than any team in the game. Obviously losing Lee isn't going to help those numbers, but we sure as hell weren't going anywhere with him either. That said, I'm dreading the possibilty of sitting here two years from now and trying to feel jazzed about the prospects we got for Sizemore.
Beanpot
That said, I'm dreading the possibilty of sitting here two years from now and trying to feel jazzed about the prospects we got for Sizemore.
Beanpot
I know what you mean, but with Hafner's (and Westbrook's, and Wood's) contract off the books at that point, I really can't imagine they trade Sizemore unless LaPorta, Weglarz and Brantley play well enough to make him expendable.
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My stance is not due to just THIS trade, but look at recent history. What do we have to show for Colon, Thome, Vizquel, Sabathia, Manny? Should I go on? Will I continue to pay the ticket, food, & drink prices of today for a putrid product? HELL NO!
The problem may be with the game itself & I may be wrong. I simply refuse to support the Dolan owned Indians anymore. My viewpoint is mine. I will not push it on anyone else & what is right for me may not be right for others. We are all entitled to our opinions & handling of situations.
Mike
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never trade a bird in the hand for two in the bush.
Basically Shapiro has given up on the club in the immediate future.
Stupidest trade ever.
We're not going anywhere this year. Would you rather have a year of Cliff Lee while we're rebuilding and bringing all our young guys up, then see him walk in free agency?
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My stance is not due to just THIS trade, but look at recent history. What do we have to show for Colon, Thome, Vizquel, Sabathia, Manny? Should I go on? Will I continue to pay the ticket, food, & drink prices of today for a putrid product? HELL NO!
The problem may be with the game itself & I may be wrong. I simply refuse to support the Dolan owned Indians anymore. My viewpoint is mine. I will not push it on anyone else & what is right for me may not be right for others. We are all entitled to our opinions & handling of situations.
Mike
My stance is not due to just THIS trade, but look at recent history. What do we have to show for Colon, Thome, Vizquel, Sabathia, Manny? Should I go on? Will I continue to pay the ticket, food, & drink prices of today for a putrid product? HELL NO!
The problem may be with the game itself & I may be wrong. I simply refuse to support the Dolan owned Indians anymore. My viewpoint is mine. I will not push it on anyone else & what is right for me may not be right for others. We are all entitled to our opinions & handling of situations.
Mike
Hey, that's your call and you're certainly allowed your opinion. Thought I said as much in my earlier post.
Still, it's weird that you led off your "what do we have to show for" comment with Bartolo.
Beanpot
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