Official: Lee to Phillies
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Remember back when I said that you're entitled to your opinion? Said it with a smiley face and everything? That still stands.
However, how in the hell do you break down the Colon deal to "Colon/Sizemore...pretty much a wash" in the same exact thread that you're stomping on your Wahoo lid and giving up on the team due to the trading of Cliff Lee!?!?
There are a ton of metrics out there that place values on trades and that "pretty much a wash" trade is often referred to as being historically good. Even if you don't buy into that kinda stuff, I've yet to come across anyone who considered that deal to be a wash. Lost opportunity with Phillips, sure. Wash given Lee/Sizemore for 800ish innings from Bart? Good God no.
Beanpot
the trade of Big Fat Bartolo Colon has turned out to be one of the biggest heists in MLB history. It didn't work out PERFECTLY for the Indians, having burned Phillips' options early and ultimately losing him. But Bartolo Colon shouldn't have even been in the League for the last 4 or 5 years. He had a good half season after the Indians dealt him, and his ONE 21-8 season with LAA a couple of years later.
And if I remember correctly, there were a whole lot of PO'd Indians fans then too. No one even knew Lee or Sizemore. Phillips was supposed to be the centerpiece of the deal, and the other two were just supporting players. I am in no way saying this Lee/Francisco trade will turn out the same, but getting basically half of one organizations top 10 prospects for a guy you don't ever need (Francisco) and a guy you can't use and can't keep... I won't complain.
I would think that just remembering the Big Fat Bartolo deal, you'd be a little more willing to see what becomes of at least Carrasco and Knapp, before throwing your Indians hat in the fireplace.
To me, it's genuinely exciting to see these deals get done. Last June I had come to terms with the fact that the Indians would not see the playoffs again before these guys had to be dealt. I'm ready to see what another surge of young talent can add up to at the major league level.
LaPorta, Brantley, Weglarz, Santana, Rondon, Huff, Valbuena, Cabrera, Hodges...
What I want to know, is how MeLoan got traded for some garbage old bullpen guy that TB had picked up free of charge after the Nats dumped him.
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Remember back when I said that you're entitled to your opinion? Said it with a smiley face and everything? That still stands.
However, how in the hell do you break down the Colon deal to "Colon/Sizemore...pretty much a wash" in the same exact thread that you're stomping on your Wahoo lid and giving up on the team due to the trading of Cliff Lee!?!?
There are a ton of metrics out there that place values on trades and that "pretty much a wash" trade is often referred to as being historically good. Even if you don't buy into that kinda stuff, I've yet to come across anyone who considered that deal to be a wash. Lost opportunity with Phillips, sure. Wash given Lee/Sizemore for 800ish innings from Bart? Good God no.
Beanpot
the trade of Big Fat Bartolo Colon has turned out to be one of the biggest heists in MLB history. It didn't work out PERFECTLY for the Indians, having burned Phillips' options early and ultimately losing him. But Bartolo Colon shouldn't have even been in the League for the last 4 or 5 years. He had a good half season after the Indians dealt him, and his ONE 21-8 season with LAA a couple of years later.
And if I remember correctly, there were a whole lot of PO'd Indians fans then too. No one even knew Lee or Sizemore. Phillips was supposed to be the centerpiece of the deal, and the other two were just supporting players. I am in no way saying this Lee/Francisco trade will turn out the same, but getting basically half of one organizations top 10 prospects for a guy you don't ever need (Francisco) and a guy you can't use and can't keep... I won't complain.
I would think that just remembering the Big Fat Bartolo deal, you'd be a little more willing to see what becomes of at least Carrasco and Knapp, before throwing your Indians hat in the fireplace.
To me, it's genuinely exciting to see these deals get done. Last June I had come to terms with the fact that the Indians would not see the playoffs again before these guys had to be dealt. I'm ready to see what another surge of young talent can add up to at the major league level.
LaPorta, Brantley, Weglarz, Santana, Rondon, Huff, Valbuena, Cabrera, Hodges...
What I want to know, is how MeLoan got traded for some garbage old bullpen guy that TB had picked up free of charge after the Nats dumped him.
And if I remember correctly, there were a whole lot of PO'd Indians fans then too. No one even knew Lee or Sizemore. Phillips was supposed to be the centerpiece of the deal, and the other two were just supporting players.
Tons. Lots even. We were on another forum at the time and people were *pissed* - I, of course, was the voice of reason. Telling people that Phillips was a terrific get and that maybekinda the other two would turn out ok.
Man, I loved me some Brandon Phillips back in the day.
Beanpot
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Just for kicks I figured I'd take a look at the potential roster in the next couple years...thinking of the batting order and looking at the potential.
LF - Brantley...(.290 avg, 20+ SBs, 80 R)
CF - Sizemore...(25-30 HR, 25-30 SBs, 80-90 RBI, 100 R)
1B - LaPorta...(.300 avg, 30-35 HR, 100+ RBI)
DH - Weglarz...(.270 avg, 35-40 HR, 100+ RBI)
C - Santana...(.280 avg, 25-30 HR, 80-90 RBI)
RF - Choo...(.300 avg, 20-25 HR, 20 SBs, 80-90 RBI)
3B - Chisenhall...(.280 avg, 20-25 HR, 70-80 RBI)
SS - Cabrera...(.290 avg)
2B - Valbuena...(.280 avg, 15 SBs)
With Martinez, Peralta, Donald, and Marson as very nice trade chips.
Granted that's best case scenario, but those are realistic expectations given the caliber of players we have coming up, and a hell of a lot better than the best scenario with the roster we broke camp with. Blue chip sluggers in the middle of the order, and players like Brantley and Valbuena actually bringing something dynamic to the lineup.
Then you have Rondon with ace caliber stuff, Carrasco as a potential #2, Huff growing into a dependable starter, Laffey a nice piece as a 5th guy to get the ground ball outs. We'll take whatever we can get from Fausto, they're taking their time with him in Columbus for a reason, they want him to come back as a reliable starter. If De La Cruz can recover from his injury, he's another guy with top 3 starter stuff.
With a possible 6th-9th inning combo of Sipp-Rafael Perez-Lewis-Chris Perez. All young, all getting better.
It just seems like the worst possible time to stop being a fan. This is what should excite people...not watching Cliff Lee "carry" a 4th place team.
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Here's Law's take on the deal:
Phillies get Lee, give up few high-end assets
For the Phillies, this looks like a steal. In Cliff Lee, they acquire one of the best pitchers in the American League over the past 18 months while retaining their top two prospects and trading four guys who all have serious question marks.
Lee has been the best left-hander in the AL and top-three in the league since the start of the 2008 season, although before that he went off the rails and had to be optioned to the minors in July of 2007. Lee's entire game turned around in 2008, as he picked up some velocity, improved his command and began to work more effectively in the lower half of the zone; he's now a four-pitch guy with command and control who works deep into games. (He has shown a large platoon split this year, with right-handed batters gaining more than 250 points of OPS, but it's out of line with his previous seasons and appears to be a fluke.) His contract includes a $9 million option for 2010 that the Phillies will certainly pick up; even if they decided they couldn't afford to keep him, he's extremely tradeable and they'd probably get value close to what they just gave up to acquire him.
Ben Francisco is a good right-handed bat off the bench who can fill in all over the outfield, but isn't going to produce enough to play every day in an outfield corner. He's a good depth add for the Phillies' bench, which is weak overall and has no viable right-handed bats to sub for a left-handed hitter late in a game.
If there's a problem with the Philly side, it's that they don't need Lee. They came into Wednesday eight games up in the loss column in the National League East standings, with Baseball Prospectus calling them an 83 percent chance to win the division. Lee makes them a better playoff team, but the playoffs are such a crapshoot that any upgrade only makes a team slightly more likely to win any particular series. It's hard to argue with the value proposition, however -- if you can get an underpaid, top-three pitcher in the tougher league without giving up any of your top three prospects, you kind of have to make the trade.
Cleveland's return is going to end up leaning very heavily on 19-year-old right-hander Jason Knapp, who is currently on the shelf with shoulder fatigue. Knapp is a low-three quarters slinger with a shoulder-heavy arm action, landing on a stiff front leg and struggling to close his front shoulder. He's been sitting in the mid-90s this spring, but his curveball and changeup remain below average; it's possible he won't ever have an average curve from that arm slot. The arm strength and the results for a 19-year-old in full-season A-ball are both very impressive, so even with the other concerns he has potential, but he's a high-risk/high-reward guy. Cleveland rarely has guys like this in their system because they tend to draft conservatively, and their best homegrown prospect right now, 20-year-old shortstop Lonnie Chisenhall, was a pick where they broke out of their typical draft philosophy.
The remaining players headed to Cleveland are inventory. Coming into 2009, Jason Donald, 24, projected as either an average defensive shortstop or above-average second baseman; his bat plays at either position but probably won't at third base, and he performed terribly in Triple-A this year before going down with a torn meniscus in his left knee in June, an injury from which he just returned to Triple-A. If the injured left knee was the true cause of his struggles, then it's a good buy-low move for Cleveland. Right-hander Carlos Carrasco is just 22 and has shown an above-average fastball, but he lacks a plus or even above-average secondary pitch, his command is poor and his on-field makeup has been a major question for two years; he doesn't respond well to adversity between the lines and, according to multiple sources, was so upset about seeing his name in trade talks last year that he pulled himself from a start during warm-ups and may have deliberately pitched poorly to try to hurt his trade value. Catcher Lou Marson, 23, makes a lot of contact and controls the strike zone but his swing path takes the bat down to the ball, resulting in a ton of ground balls and therefore little to no power. With Carlos Santana already the catcher of the future in Cleveland, Marson looks like either a future backup or an asset for the Indians to move somewhere else.
At this point it's hard to see any logic for Cleveland to retain Victor Martinez; their chances to contend in 2010 are largely gone because of the dearth of major league-ready starting pitching in the organization, and they're not in a payroll bracket where they're going to go out and buy three-fifths of a playoff rotation. Keeping Martinez, a productive but injury-prone catcher, with Santana and Marson sitting in Triple-A, doesn't make much sense given the front office's evident decision to rebuild.
http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index...;name=law_keith
Beanpot
Here's Law's take on the deal:
Phillies get Lee, give up few high-end assets
For the Phillies, this looks like a steal. In Cliff Lee, they acquire one of the best pitchers in the American League over the past 18 months while retaining their top two prospects and trading four guys who all have serious question marks.
Lee has been the best left-hander in the AL and top-three in the league since the start of the 2008 season, although before that he went off the rails and had to be optioned to the minors in July of 2007. Lee's entire game turned around in 2008, as he picked up some velocity, improved his command and began to work more effectively in the lower half of the zone; he's now a four-pitch guy with command and control who works deep into games. (He has shown a large platoon split this year, with right-handed batters gaining more than 250 points of OPS, but it's out of line with his previous seasons and appears to be a fluke.) His contract includes a $9 million option for 2010 that the Phillies will certainly pick up; even if they decided they couldn't afford to keep him, he's extremely tradeable and they'd probably get value close to what they just gave up to acquire him.
Ben Francisco is a good right-handed bat off the bench who can fill in all over the outfield, but isn't going to produce enough to play every day in an outfield corner. He's a good depth add for the Phillies' bench, which is weak overall and has no viable right-handed bats to sub for a left-handed hitter late in a game.
If there's a problem with the Philly side, it's that they don't need Lee. They came into Wednesday eight games up in the loss column in the National League East standings, with Baseball Prospectus calling them an 83 percent chance to win the division. Lee makes them a better playoff team, but the playoffs are such a crapshoot that any upgrade only makes a team slightly more likely to win any particular series. It's hard to argue with the value proposition, however -- if you can get an underpaid, top-three pitcher in the tougher league without giving up any of your top three prospects, you kind of have to make the trade.
Cleveland's return is going to end up leaning very heavily on 19-year-old right-hander Jason Knapp, who is currently on the shelf with shoulder fatigue. Knapp is a low-three quarters slinger with a shoulder-heavy arm action, landing on a stiff front leg and struggling to close his front shoulder. He's been sitting in the mid-90s this spring, but his curveball and changeup remain below average; it's possible he won't ever have an average curve from that arm slot. The arm strength and the results for a 19-year-old in full-season A-ball are both very impressive, so even with the other concerns he has potential, but he's a high-risk/high-reward guy. Cleveland rarely has guys like this in their system because they tend to draft conservatively, and their best homegrown prospect right now, 20-year-old shortstop Lonnie Chisenhall, was a pick where they broke out of their typical draft philosophy.
The remaining players headed to Cleveland are inventory. Coming into 2009, Jason Donald, 24, projected as either an average defensive shortstop or above-average second baseman; his bat plays at either position but probably won't at third base, and he performed terribly in Triple-A this year before going down with a torn meniscus in his left knee in June, an injury from which he just returned to Triple-A. If the injured left knee was the true cause of his struggles, then it's a good buy-low move for Cleveland. Right-hander Carlos Carrasco is just 22 and has shown an above-average fastball, but he lacks a plus or even above-average secondary pitch, his command is poor and his on-field makeup has been a major question for two years; he doesn't respond well to adversity between the lines and, according to multiple sources, was so upset about seeing his name in trade talks last year that he pulled himself from a start during warm-ups and may have deliberately pitched poorly to try to hurt his trade value. Catcher Lou Marson, 23, makes a lot of contact and controls the strike zone but his swing path takes the bat down to the ball, resulting in a ton of ground balls and therefore little to no power. With Carlos Santana already the catcher of the future in Cleveland, Marson looks like either a future backup or an asset for the Indians to move somewhere else.
At this point it's hard to see any logic for Cleveland to retain Victor Martinez; their chances to contend in 2010 are largely gone because of the dearth of major league-ready starting pitching in the organization, and they're not in a payroll bracket where they're going to go out and buy three-fifths of a playoff rotation. Keeping Martinez, a productive but injury-prone catcher, with Santana and Marson sitting in Triple-A, doesn't make much sense given the front office's evident decision to rebuild.
http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index...;name=law_keith
Beanpot
This article is not really a raving endorsement of the Indians trade. It sounds like we got one high risk/reward guy and roster filler for the rest. Ugh.
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Just for kicks I figured I'd take a look at the potential roster in the next couple years...thinking of the batting order and looking at the potential.
LF - Brantley...(.290 avg, 20+ SBs, 80 R)
CF - Sizemore...(25-30 HR, 25-30 SBs, 80-90 RBI, 100 R)
1B - LaPorta...(.300 avg, 30-35 HR, 100+ RBI)
DH - Weglarz...(.270 avg, 35-40 HR, 100+ RBI)
C - Santana...(.280 avg, 25-30 HR, 80-90 RBI)
RF - Choo...(.300 avg, 20-25 HR, 20 SBs, 80-90 RBI)
3B - Chisenhall...(.280 avg, 20-25 HR, 70-80 RBI)
SS - Cabrera...(.290 avg)
2B - Valbuena...(.280 avg, 15 SBs)
With Martinez, Peralta, Donald, and Marson as very nice trade chips.
Granted that's best case scenario, but those are realistic expectations given the caliber of players we have coming up, and a hell of a lot better than the best scenario with the roster we broke camp with. Blue chip sluggers in the middle of the order, and players like Brantley and Valbuena actually bringing something dynamic to the lineup.
Then you have Rondon with ace caliber stuff, Carrasco as a potential #2, Huff growing into a dependable starter, Laffey a nice piece as a 5th guy to get the ground ball outs. We'll take whatever we can get from Fausto, they're taking their time with him in Columbus for a reason, they want him to come back as a reliable starter. If De La Cruz can recover from his injury, he's another guy with top 3 starter stuff.
With a possible 6th-9th inning combo of Sipp-Rafael Perez-Lewis-Chris Perez. All young, all getting better.
It just seems like the worst possible time to stop being a fan. This is what should excite people...not watching Cliff Lee "carry" a 4th place team.
It just seems like the worst possible time to stop being a fan. This is what should excite people...not watching Cliff Lee "carry" a 4th place team.
After more thought CIMO, I think you are wrong. Carry the team? This team was one game away from the World Series in 07 and had the best record in the American league after all star break in 08. So you blow up the team? And get prospects that could not pan out? WHAT? The key word here is PROSPECT.
This is not about prospects CIMO, it's about money. Your loyalty is admirable, but this was taken too far. I and thousands feel the same, I am done this season and will think about buying ANY tickets next year. I gave my 3 sets of tickets I had left away to my neighbor. I don't care about the money, which is what the Dolan's should be thinking.
I see your point and it is a good point. But what the Dolan's did was have the best interests of the Indians (supposedly) in mind. Not the city of Cleveland. This is just plain demoralizing. Sure on paper it's a good trade, but so was moving the Browns to Baltimore. The Dolan's f'ucked up BIG TIME. Sorry dude I am done.
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CIMO, you might be the only one in Cleveland happy with the trade.
Technically I'm in Fort Worth, but point taken.
That said, I invite anyone to refute any of these points on why the trade should've been made.
1. The Indians aren't contending this year or next
2. The Indians weren't going to re-sign him
3. No team is trading a legit, young, major league ready ace-caliber pitcher for a rental. Why do you think the Phillies didn't get Halladay?
4. The current roster is full of holes that can't be filled with a couple free agents or trades
5. With Rondon, LaPorta, Santana, Brantley, Weglarz, Chisenhall, and a handful of high upside young relievers and the current crop of Huff, Laffey, etc improving, it shows we were already built for the long-term before we started trading players this year.
All of those things, to me, make this a no-brainer. I don't like seeing a Cy Young winner go...but he just wasn't doing anything for us, and we weren't going to re-sign him. It makes no sense to me to hang onto him and waste more great years from a player when the team's not winning anything.
Technically I'm in Fort Worth, but point taken.
Which is probably why you are the only one who thinks this is a good trade. Come to Cleveland and find a job. Go down to the flats and watch the bums fight over some trash. The only thing we had at this point was watching Lee pitch some good baseball. Now we can watch Pavano give up 6 runs and be our #1 starter. Sorry man, there is more to this then stats and prospects, it about what us Clevelanders have left, which at this point is the Browns and Cavs. The Dolan's can kiss my ass. If I still worked at my old job (with Larry Dolan's son) I would of asked him to pass that message on to Larry myself.
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CIMO beat me to it, but I was going to say something similar. Far be it for me to question why anyone decides to stop being a fan, but *this* deal hardly seems like something that would push one over the edge. Maybe so if you think it's writing on the wall (tempted to feel this way myself) and that we're in deep financial trouble and sell-offs have been ordered across the board. But not this deal alone.
We were sitting at 42-59 prior to this trade and had given up more runs than any team in the game. Obviously losing Lee isn't going to help those numbers, but we sure as hell weren't going anywhere with him either. That said, I'm dreading the possibilty of sitting here two years from now and trying to feel jazzed about the prospects we got for Sizemore.
Beanpot
CIMO beat me to it, but I was going to say something similar. Far be it for me to question why anyone decides to stop being a fan, but *this* deal hardly seems like something that would push one over the edge. Maybe so if you think it's writing on the wall (tempted to feel this way myself) and that we're in deep financial trouble and sell-offs have been ordered across the board. But not this deal alone.
We were sitting at 42-59 prior to this trade and had given up more runs than any team in the game. Obviously losing Lee isn't going to help those numbers, but we sure as hell weren't going anywhere with him either. That said, I'm dreading the possibilty of sitting here two years from now and trying to feel jazzed about the prospects we got for Sizemore.
Beanpot
Again, we all pretty much know how it is theoretically supposed to work. But it's translated to little success. It's gotten to the point that the few that panned out from last generation's prospects that we got for veteran trades are now veterans being traded for prospects. PERPETUAL REBUILDING.
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What do we have to show for Colon
Grady Sizemore
Thome, Vizquel, Manny?
Two trips to the World Series
Sabathia
Don't mean to pile on him, but if he pitched well in the playoffs we could've won a title.
Players come and go. Right now, our roster just isn't very good. We got lucky in 2007 with CC and Fausto clicking on all cylinders and Borowski somehow saving 40+ games, not to mention Westbrook and Byrd carrying us in the playoffs. How many World Series teams have players like Ryan Garko and Jhonny Peralta at the corner infield spots? There are a lot of ways to win, but it's pretty damn hard to do without at least one cornerstone slugger in your lineup. If Hafner stays healthy, maybe he can be that guy. But would you really take him over any of the players like Manny, Longoria, Howard, Utley, A-Rod, Teixiera, or Youkilis?
So we don't have a masher. We don't have the team speed to make up for it. Choo has been our best baserunner this year...but doesn't have the guys hitting behind him for it to make a difference. We're weak defensively. We have (well, had) one reliable pitcher.
That's not a team where you re-up everyone's contracts and try to fill a hole or two. That's a team you need to completely revamp. There's no identity, no cohesion, but there are a lot of blue chip prospects coming up through the pipeline. I just don't understand how all of that would add up to people wanting to stand pat.
(Edit) Just checked the stats...and before someone kills me for it, I admit, it seems like Westbrook and Byrd weren't as good in the playoffs as I remembered. Carry on.
Grady Sizemore
Two trips to the World Series
Don't mean to pile on him, but if he pitched well in the playoffs we could've won a title.
Players come and go. Right now, our roster just isn't very good. We got lucky in 2007 with CC and Fausto clicking on all cylinders and Borowski somehow saving 40+ games, not to mention Westbrook and Byrd carrying us in the playoffs. How many World Series teams have players like Ryan Garko and Jhonny Peralta at the corner infield spots? There are a lot of ways to win, but it's pretty damn hard to do without at least one cornerstone slugger in your lineup. If Hafner stays healthy, maybe he can be that guy. But would you really take him over any of the players like Manny, Longoria, Howard, Utley, A-Rod, Teixiera, or Youkilis?
So we don't have a masher. We don't have the team speed to make up for it. Choo has been our best baserunner this year...but doesn't have the guys hitting behind him for it to make a difference. We're weak defensively. We have (well, had) one reliable pitcher.
That's not a team where you re-up everyone's contracts and try to fill a hole or two. That's a team you need to completely revamp. There's no identity, no cohesion, but there are a lot of blue chip prospects coming up through the pipeline. I just don't understand how all of that would add up to people wanting to stand pat.
(Edit) Just checked the stats...and before someone kills me for it, I admit, it seems like Westbrook and Byrd weren't as good in the playoffs as I remembered. Carry on.
So how long are you going to give Shapiro and Dolan? As I said, Perpetual rebuilding. It's not working.
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CIMO beat me to it, but I was going to say something similar. Far be it for me to question why anyone decides to stop being a fan, but *this* deal hardly seems like something that would push one over the edge. Maybe so if you think it's writing on the wall (tempted to feel this way myself) and that we're in deep financial trouble and sell-offs have been ordered across the board. But not this deal alone.
We were sitting at 42-59 prior to this trade and had given up more runs than any team in the game. Obviously losing Lee isn't going to help those numbers, but we sure as hell weren't going anywhere with him either. That said, I'm dreading the possibilty of sitting here two years from now and trying to feel jazzed about the prospects we got for Sizemore.
Beanpot
Again, we all pretty much know how it is theoretically supposed to work. But it's translated to little success. It's gotten to the point that the few that panned out from last generation's prospects that we got for veteran trades are now veterans being traded for prospects. PERPETUAL REBUILDING.
Again, we all pretty much know how it is theoretically supposed to work. But it's translated to little success. It's gotten to the point that the few that panned out from last generation's prospects that we got for veteran trades are now veterans being traded for prospects. PERPETUAL REBUILDING.
EXACTLY.
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Despite all the arguments to the contrary, I will stand by my original opinion of the trade. In a nutshell, IT SUCKS! I still believe Dolan needs to sell! His view on the whole aspect is, "We will start spending more money when the fans start spending more money and selling out Progressive Field every night." Horrble business view. You don't expect customers to buy before you put out a quality product. Give us quality, and we will buy. It's not like we ever had 455 consecutive sell outs here in Cleveland before. We have already proven ourselves as a fan base. Dolan has destroyed the momentum and the team that Dick Jacobs built. We need new ownership. From a fan's prospective and that of a businessman, the Indians ownership and management have mishandled this team.
Also, why is Wedge still here? What's next...are we giving his sorry ass another extension? Wouldn't doubt it for a second. It's what this management does.
This trade has very little to do about building a winning team and a lot to do with saving money. Dolan, you would have a nearly endless supply of income if you'd give us a winning team! How much more payroll are we going to cut while we build for long term success (where have we heard that before?)? Next year, who will we trade? By the time Carrasco, Knapp, Donald, or Marson become anything, we'll be trading them for more prospects too. I'm done drinking Dolan's and Shapiro's kool-ade. Give me a team I can be proud of. This team we have right now is a joke. I feel bad for all the fans and for players like Grady and Asdrubal and Westbrook. They...We all deserve a winner. At this point, I am not asking to win it all. Just give us a team that at least has a chance of winning a World Series!
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Technically I'm in Fort Worth, but point taken.
Which is probably why you are the only one who thinks this is a good trade. Come to Cleveland and find a job. Go down to the flats and watch the bums fight over some trash. The only thing we had at this point was watching Lee pitch some good baseball. Now we can watch Pavano give up 6 runs and be our #1 starter. Sorry man, there is more to this then stats and prospects, it about what us Clevelanders have left, which at this point is the Browns and Cavs. The Dolan's can kiss my ass. If I still worked at my old job (with Larry Dolan's son) I would of asked him to pass that message on to Larry myself.
Which is probably why you are the only one who thinks this is a good trade. Come to Cleveland and find a job. Go down to the flats and watch the bums fight over some trash. The only thing we had at this point was watching Lee pitch some good baseball. Now we can watch Pavano give up 6 runs and be our #1 starter. Sorry man, there is more to this then stats and prospects, it about what us Clevelanders have left, which at this point is the Browns and Cavs. The Dolan's can kiss my ass. If I still worked at my old job (with Larry Dolan's son) I would of asked him to pass that message on to Larry myself.
Very good points, except I'm not buying the Baltimore move as any kind of comparison.
But living in DFW...I can give pretty good examples to both sides.
The Mavericks went to the NBA Finals as the favorites to win it in 2006. Went up 2-0 on the Heat before Wade took over and won the next four games. There was no mention of how weak the rest of the league was at that point, just that they were the best team and should've won a title. Since then they've never backed off the idea that they're title contenders...keeping Dirk when they could've gotten Kobe for him, adding veterans like Jason Kidd and now Shawn Marion, giving absurd contracts to Sagana Diop and Jason Terry (not to mention Kidd and Marion), giving up young players (Devin Harris, who averaged 21 and 7 this year) for vets to "win now". And yet, they've won absolutely nothing and teams like LA, Boston, Cleveland, Orlando and Denver have pretty much lapped them with better, younger talent. So they may have one of the biggest payrolls in the league and an owner who will spend anything to win it all, but have no shot at winning a title.
Then we have the Texas Rangers. They signed A-Rod. A few times they got a big-time player in a deadline deal (Carlos Lee most recently). They constantly traded prospects for major leaguers to "win now". Unfortunately the huge money players amounted to 0 playoff apperances, and the prospects they traded turned into John Danks, Chris Young (Padres), Adrian Gonzalez, etc and none of those "proven players" (namely Brandon McCarthy, Adam Eaton) panned out. Finally they get a real baseball guy in the front office in Nolan Ryan, have held on to their talented young players, and are competing this year with a great future.
Everyone here is crazy about the Rangers now (until the Cowboys get started again), and couldn't care less about the Mavs.
And I just don't buy this "perpetual rebuilding" thing. We rebuilt when Shapiro got here, peaked in '07, and were completely falling off the cliff this year. When we looked like a contender, Shapiro got the veteran players like Delucci and Michaels and Nixon, re-signed Pronk, and picked up Kenny Lofton at the deadline. Last year we were 10 or 12 games out, knew we weren't going to sign CC or Blake and dealt them. This offseason, thinking we were contenders, Shapiro got us Kerry Wood, Mark DeRosa, Pavano, and a couple more arms for the bullpen while overhauling our minor league system.
Now it's clear the season wasn't going anywhere, so Shapiro decided to cut bait and get what he could to make sure we're not in the same position for 5 more years.
I understand it sucks from a pure fan, emotional standpoint....but when you take a step back and just analyze what it does for the team, it was the right move. If there's anything to complain about, it's the lack of salary cap that makes it impossible for teams like us to keep quality starting pitching.
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Which is probably why you are the only one who thinks this is a good trade. Come to Cleveland and find a job. Go down to the flats and watch the bums fight over some trash. The only thing we had at this point was watching Lee pitch some good baseball. Now we can watch Pavano give up 6 runs and be our #1 starter. Sorry man, there is more to this then stats and prospects, it about what us Clevelanders have left, which at this point is the Browns and Cavs. The Dolan's can kiss my ass. If I still worked at my old job (with Larry Dolan's son) I would of asked him to pass that message on to Larry myself.
Very good points, except I'm not buying the Baltimore move as any kind of comparison.
But living in DFW...I can give pretty good examples to both sides.
The Mavericks went to the NBA Finals as the favorites to win it in 2006. Went up 2-0 on the Heat before Wade took over and won the next four games. There was no mention of how weak the rest of the league was at that point, just that they were the best team and should've won a title. Since then they've never backed off the idea that they're title contenders...keeping Dirk when they could've gotten Kobe for him, adding veterans like Jason Kidd and now Shawn Marion, giving absurd contracts to Sagana Diop and Jason Terry (not to mention Kidd and Marion), giving up young players (Devin Harris, who averaged 21 and 7 this year) for vets to "win now". And yet, they've won absolutely nothing and teams like LA, Boston, Cleveland, Orlando and Denver have pretty much lapped them with better, younger talent. So they may have one of the biggest payrolls in the league and an owner who will spend anything to win it all, but have no shot at winning a title.
Then we have the Texas Rangers. They signed A-Rod. A few times they got a big-time player in a deadline deal (Carlos Lee most recently). They constantly traded prospects for major leaguers to "win now". Unfortunately the huge money players amounted to 0 playoff apperances, and the prospects they traded turned into John Danks, Chris Young (Padres), Adrian Gonzalez, etc and none of those "proven players" (namely Brandon McCarthy, Adam Eaton) panned out. Finally they get a real baseball guy in the front office in Nolan Ryan, have held on to their talented young players, and are competing this year with a great future.
Everyone here is crazy about the Rangers now (until the Cowboys get started again), and couldn't care less about the Mavs.
And I just don't buy this "perpetual rebuilding" thing. We rebuilt when Shapiro got here, peaked in '07, and were completely falling off the cliff this year. When we looked like a contender, Shapiro got the veteran players like Delucci and Michaels and Nixon, re-signed Pronk, and picked up Kenny Lofton at the deadline. Last year we were 10 or 12 games out, knew we weren't going to sign CC or Blake and dealt them. This offseason, thinking we were contenders, Shapiro got us Kerry Wood, Mark DeRosa, Pavano, and a couple more arms for the bullpen while overhauling our minor league system.
Now it's clear the season wasn't going anywhere, so Shapiro decided to cut bait and get what he could to make sure we're not in the same position for 5 more years.
I understand it sucks from a pure fan, emotional standpoint....but when you take a step back and just analyze what it does for the team, it was the right move. If there's anything to complain about, it's the lack of salary cap that makes it impossible for teams like us to keep quality starting pitching.
And I just don't buy this "perpetual rebuilding" thing. We rebuilt when Shapiro got here, peaked in '07, and were completely falling off the cliff this year. When we looked like a contender, Shapiro got the veteran players like Delucci and Michaels and Nixon, re-signed Pronk, and picked up Kenny Lofton at the deadline. Last year we were 10 or 12 games out, knew we weren't going to sign CC or Blake and dealt them. This offseason, thinking we were contenders, Shapiro got us Kerry Wood, Mark DeRosa, Pavano, and a couple more arms for the bullpen while overhauling our minor league system.
Yes perpetual rebuilding. The team has been doing this every decade (except for the 90's).
Delucci, Michaels, Nixon, WHAT! DeRosa and Pavano, come on. Re-signed a hurt and damaged player in Pronk, NO ONE wants this guy.
10 to 12 games out? We had the best record in baseball after All Star Break. So he trades CC and then the team does good? Where is the "genius" in that? And don't give me "he knew it all along".
Then you got Wedge and Shapiro bringing up the same players you are talking about from the minor leagues, playing them for one day and then sitting them. Marte gets 2 hits the night before last and then sits him? Control of this team is completely lost. Wedge is a joke.
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Which is probably why you are the only one who thinks this is a good trade. Come to Cleveland and find a job. Go down to the flats and watch the bums fight over some trash. The only thing we had at this point was watching Lee pitch some good baseball. Now we can watch Pavano give up 6 runs and be our #1 starter. Sorry man, there is more to this then stats and prospects, it about what us Clevelanders have left, which at this point is the Browns and Cavs. The Dolan's can kiss my ass. If I still worked at my old job (with Larry Dolan's son) I would of asked him to pass that message on to Larry myself.
Very good points, except I'm not buying the Baltimore move as any kind of comparison.
But living in DFW...I can give pretty good examples to both sides.
The Mavericks went to the NBA Finals as the favorites to win it in 2006. Went up 2-0 on the Heat before Wade took over and won the next four games. There was no mention of how weak the rest of the league was at that point, just that they were the best team and should've won a title. Since then they've never backed off the idea that they're title contenders...keeping Dirk when they could've gotten Kobe for him, adding veterans like Jason Kidd and now Shawn Marion, giving absurd contracts to Sagana Diop and Jason Terry (not to mention Kidd and Marion), giving up young players (Devin Harris, who averaged 21 and 7 this year) for vets to "win now". And yet, they've won absolutely nothing and teams like LA, Boston, Cleveland, Orlando and Denver have pretty much lapped them with better, younger talent. So they may have one of the biggest payrolls in the league and an owner who will spend anything to win it all, but have no shot at winning a title.
Then we have the Texas Rangers. They signed A-Rod. A few times they got a big-time player in a deadline deal (Carlos Lee most recently). They constantly traded prospects for major leaguers to "win now". Unfortunately the huge money players amounted to 0 playoff apperances, and the prospects they traded turned into John Danks, Chris Young (Padres), Adrian Gonzalez, etc and none of those "proven players" (namely Brandon McCarthy, Adam Eaton) panned out. Finally they get a real baseball guy in the front office in Nolan Ryan, have held on to their talented young players, and are competing this year with a great future.
Everyone here is crazy about the Rangers now (until the Cowboys get started again), and couldn't care less about the Mavs.
And I just don't buy this "perpetual rebuilding" thing. We rebuilt when Shapiro got here, peaked in '07, and were completely falling off the cliff this year. When we looked like a contender, Shapiro got the veteran players like Delucci and Michaels and Nixon, re-signed Pronk, and picked up Kenny Lofton at the deadline. Last year we were 10 or 12 games out, knew we weren't going to sign CC or Blake and dealt them. This offseason, thinking we were contenders, Shapiro got us Kerry Wood, Mark DeRosa, Pavano, and a couple more arms for the bullpen while overhauling our minor league system.
Now it's clear the season wasn't going anywhere, so Shapiro decided to cut bait and get what he could to make sure we're not in the same position for 5 more years.
I understand it sucks from a pure fan, emotional standpoint....but when you take a step back and just analyze what it does for the team, it was the right move. If there's anything to complain about, it's the lack of salary cap that makes it impossible for teams like us to keep quality starting pitching.
Now it's clear the season wasn't going anywhere, so Shapiro decided to cut bait and get what he could to make sure we're not in the same position for 5 more years.
I call BS on this. This was the same team who almost made it to the World Series. Why aren't they preforming? I think they need to address that issue before getting rid of a CY Young pitcher signed through 2010. I could see some sense in the trade if this was 2010 and Lee was leaving. What does this tell me, the team, and the city, there is no chance of you winning next year or for the next 3 years for that matter.
We are now in Pirate territory in every sense of the word. Payroll, talent, pride. All gone.
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CIMO, even you admit that the team played way above their heads to get to the ALCS. Now he admits he doesnt expect to win in '10 even.
So they were rebuilding when they traded for Lee and now they are rebuilding by trading Lee with nothing to show for it but a luck ALCS appearance.
:neutral_face: -
What defines rebuilding then?
2007, a mere two years ago, Shapiro was getting players to win now (well, win then). Veterans to fill out the roster, and he makes the huge trade to get Kenny.
2008 we were satisfied coming off the ALCS, rode it out with what we had, were out of the race and traded two players that were going to be lost as free agents.
2009, encouraged by the '08 2nd half, and a few guys coming off injuries, Shapiro decides we're contenders. We had gaping holes at 2B/3B, depth in the rotation and the bullpen, and closer. So he goes out and gets DeRosa for the infield, Pavano to fill a spot in the rotation, Wood to be our closer, picks up Smith for the bullpen and Valbuena as the future 2B.
You can say those were the wrong moves to make....but that's not "rebuilding". So break it into the 6 parts of the last three years
2007 pre-season - bring in vets to fill out the roster.
2007 deadline - Kenny Lofton
2008 pre-season - stand pat
2008 deadline - sellers
2009 pre-season - spends money, fills some gaping holes
2009 deadline - sellers
You can't stand pat for years at a time in baseball. When Shapiro came in, it was definitely a complete overhaul. The last three years were dedicated to winning though, until we got to the deadline out of the race.
Worth noting that the previous overhaul brought us Lee, Sizemore, Hafner, Choo, Cabrera, Gutierrez, and just about everyone else that made us so-called contenders the last three years. Now we're in the same process, but have more than a handful of top-notch prospects that will be ready by NEXT YEAR.
I don't know, it's not something where either side can change the other's mind...it just doesn't make sense to me to keep one player who doesn't have any impact in the short term besides being fun to watch...and absolutely zero impact long term when he's playing for a big market.
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CIMO, even you admit that the team played way above their heads to get to the ALCS. Now he admits he doesnt expect to win in '10 even.
So they were rebuilding when they traded for Lee and now they are rebuilding by trading Lee with nothing to show for it but a luck ALCS appearance.
CIMO, even you admit that the team played way above their heads to get to the ALCS. Now he admits he doesnt expect to win in '10 even.
So they were rebuilding when they traded for Lee and now they are rebuilding by trading Lee with nothing to show for it but a luck ALCS appearance.
Nicely put Eater. I wouldn't say luck, they were a good team playing well together. The question is what happened?
What the hell do the players have to play for, now?
OK so for the last 10-12 years the fans stuck by the team owned by the Dolan's, even though they were producing a bad product. Some glimmer of hope that we can put a team out there to compete. The Dolan's basically said F'CK YOU to the fans. So in the coming years we are going to hear the ownership bitch about attendance and money. You know they can go F'CK themselves.
This was not a decision that Shapiro made, this was 100% the Dolan's. And 100% about money, NOT PROSPECTS. F'CK Larry Dolan. Sell the team and get the F'CK out of Cleveland.
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This was the same team who almost made it to the World Series.
Only CC is in New York, Fausto is in Columbus, Blake is in LA, Kenny is retired, and Westbrook and Hafner are coming off major surgery.
Only CC is in New York, Fausto is in Columbus, Blake is in LA, Kenny is retired, and Westbrook and Hafner are coming off major surgery.
All the more reason you don't trade a CY Young lefty with a year left on his contract.
Agreed about '07, but without CC, Blake, Kenny, Westbrook and Hafner (Fausto pitching bad) we had the best record after all star break last year, it was the same team. I'm not buying it.
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I'm just not following it. We played well after the all-star break and look like contenders, so Shapiro goes out and fills the holes in the offseason. How is that considered rebuilding?
Now we're at the deadline 18 games under .500 and everyone wants to stand pat. I can't understand that. Would you rather be Toronto and waste another year and a half of your great pitcher and stink for 5 more years?
Moving forward we have Sizemore, Choo and probably Hafner as our proven guys, with Santana, LaPorta, Weglarz, Brantley, Rondon, and Carrasco as legit difference makers in 2011.
2009 was already in the toilet.
2011 we'll be reaping the rewards.
It's just a matter of one wasted year in 2010...but if some of things we expected to happen THIS YEAR...i.e. Carmona coming back to form, Wood being an effective closer, R Perez and Lewis as reliable setup men, Westbrook filling a spot in the rotation...to go along with the big league-ready prospects we have in LaPorta, C Perez, Huff, S Lewis, etc continuing to improve....we seriously aren't that much worse off than we'd be with Lee (or Betancourt, DeRosa, or Garko).
Like I said... at this point, neither of us are telling the other anything we don't know...I just truly don't see trading Lee as a reason to give up on the team if you're a true fan.
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