@bob806 said:

http://www.cleveland.com/pluto/index.ssf/2014/02/picking_a_quarterback_in_the_t.html#incart_river_default

Man we beat this QB stuff to death on here, but this is interesting reading.

Misleading stat:

From 2002-2011 only 3 QBs in the AFC got a team to a Super Bowl: Ben Roethlisber (2-1:3), Tom Brady, (2-2:4) Peyton Manning (1-1:1)

In the NFC, Kurt Warner pulled out 3, Eli Manning 2, Aaron Rodgers 1, Donovan McNabb 1 , Drew Brees 1

Who wants to bet that every QB listed above will be at minimium a finalist for the Hall of Fame, maybe Eli, Ben, McNabb don't make it. - but I bet 2 Super Bowls gets them in eventually.

You are left with a former MVP - Gannon, All Pro Hasslebeck and guys with a lot of future left to be sorted out.

You need a guy who can play QB. Don't try and over think it.

@cuwoohio said:

When ESPN has a piece of something like the NFL, They kill you with coverage. They had NASCAR for many years and had hours of coverage every

week, along with the races. When they got outbid by Fox, and NBC, you didn't hear a word about it. They put themselves on Mount Rushmore, and they determine what the public wants, not by how popular a sport is, but by how big a piece of that sport they have. I guess it's good business on their part, and since they really don't have anything close to them in regards to sports coverage, we'll just have to put up with them.......can't really stand the people on Fox Sports network, and NBC isn't much better. CBS really doesn't have much yet.

Most insightful quote ever on here. Cowboys, Lakers, Heat, Knicks - handful of other franchises as well.

In 2008 Steelers (evenutal Super Bowl Champs) played Cowboys - ALL the pre game hype and even post game highlights were on the Cowboys despite them LOSING.

The Cavaliers were screwed with the lack of coverage during the LeBron James years. Betcha things would be different if they covered them the way James is covered now.

I used to love Mike and Mike in the Morning. This takes a lot for me to say, but I hate it now.

@cleinchi said:

This weeks edition of Tony Grossi's mock draft (which annoyingly stops at #26) has the Browns picking up Greg Robinson at #4 (with brownsboard favorites Sammy Watkins and Khalil Mack still on the board).

At #26 he has them picking up Ryan Shazier (in previous installments he has mentioned him playing as an uber athletic inside linebacker).

What does everyone think?

A link to the mock can be found at http://espncleveland.com/common/more.php?m=49&action=blog&r=17&post_id=30001

Looking forward to hearing everyone's thoughts,

CLEinCHI

Is this the same Tony Grossi that Gave the Steelers an "F" draft grade for 2004, drafting Ben Roethlisberger and calling him the next Tim Couch.

Is this the same Tony Grossi that said the Steelers would be lucky to finish 3rd in the AFC North and were in decline, when they were AFC North Champions, AFC Champions and were a drive away from winning the Super Bowl?

Is this the same Tony Grossi who said the Steelers were in Decline because Dan Rooney was no longer around, taking the job of Ambassador to Ireland in 2009, when he turned over the running of the franchise to his son in 2002 --- a sportswriter who doesn't even know who the owners of the division opponents are?

Is this the same Tony Grossi who was fired and stripped of his Hall of Fame vote?

Go ahead and listen to him, he just tells you what you wish was true, despite the fact he is a misinformed idiot.

@jeffinwv said:

It was a cheap shot.we all know it...except you dumb ass steller fans...

This coming from the fan base who rates the Turkey Jones slamming and injuring of Terry Bradshaw as one of the franchise highlight plays of the last 50 years.

And who celebrated causing a high ankle sprain on Ben Roethlisberger as if they won the Super Bowl?

At least admit to being a hypocrite.

Zombo said:

History will prove him to be the poster child of steroids inthe NFL.

What a piece of shit.

Z

Lets use Zombo Logic: James Harrison is not only better than any Cleveland Browns LB ever, he is better than any Cleveland Browns Defensive Player ever. So he had to have used steroids.

:

The Facts:

Harrison was an UFA in 2002, with concerns due to his height. He struggled early at understanding scheme but never struggled with his athletic abilities - which is why despite his being cut from the 2 year run on practice squad/NFL Europe, he still got a chance in 2004 after the injury to Clark Haggans and earned a spot on the regular roster.

Where you calling Harrison out for being on Steroids in his first game vs. the Browns? You know, that game in 2004 when Joey Porter and William Green were ejected before the game. It was not only the same one where Harrison recorded his first career sack, but after the Browns nearly scored on the opening kickoff and had the ball on the Steeler 11, Harrison blew up the Browns next two plays: stuffing Suggs for -3 yards and pressuring Jeff Garcia into his barely crossing the line of scrimmage - for all intents and purposes a sack that forced the Browns to kick a FG and waste a golden opportunity to score a TD in yet another loss to the Steelers that you predicted the Browns would win.

Never mind that until 2007, Harrison was #2 on the depth chart to Joey Porter (3x Pro Bowl and 2002 1st team All Pro). In the meantime, he was making contributions as a Steelers reserve, including scoring the TD that sealed the game and the 15-1 record vs. Buffalo (who was playing a win and you are in playoffs game vs. the Steelers reserves), and intercepting Phillip Rivers then just jumping over Tomlinson's attempt to tackle in 2005; while beating the crap out of a Browns fan who was as dumb as you when he ran out on the field during that 41-0 debacle you predicted the Browns would win.

Once he got his chance in 2007, he made the Pro Bowl and was Steelers MVP. In one game vs. the Ravens - 9 tackles, 3.5 sacks, 3 forced fumbles, 1 fumble recovery and 1 INT. Damn, that's better than any season from a Browns OLB since their "alleged" return to the NFL in 1999.

5 Consecutive Pro Bowls, 2 1st Team All Pros, Defensive MVP and a 100 yard INT return which is the greatest Defensive play in the history of the Super Bowl and 0 positive tests for Steroids.

Zombo Logic (also known as stupidity) - Shawn Merriman and Brian Cushing both played LB and both tested postive for steroids. Yet James Harrison will prove to be the poster child of steroids of the NFL based on.....what?

Because he was cut 4 times? Damn, that's still one shy of the # of NFL franchises that have left Cleveland or folded (Bulldogs, Indians, Indians, Rams, Browns).

After all these years, you seriously still do not have a life that this is your high point.

@clevfan4life said:

I think the steelers are done with James. He talked shit on his way out of there, basically saying he couldn't wait to fuck dudes up when he came to town with the Bengals. They're moving on. He was never a real captain or leader anyway, he kept to himself and only gave a fuck about himself. So why bring him back? To mentor the noobs? He could care less....couldn't mentor them even if he wanted to, which he doesn't. I respect the dude, he's his own man...goes through life how he feels like. But there's certain things he's not capable of and that means now that his skills have diminished...his usefulness in the league is diminished even more. This is why guys like DQ carry value past their playing prime.

It is true that James Harrison was never a Team Captain or Leader; his personality is more introverted, and he is not the dominant OLB he once was.

Other than that, you have a phenomenal imagination - because nothing you said has even the slightest bit of accuracy.

• On his way "out"; he commented that "All good things must end", he never "talked shit" on his way out.
• The only thing he ever gave a fuck about was himself -- and you know this how? Have you ever met the guy?
• Why bring him back? Because he knows the complicated 3-4 system and the Steelers are very thin at OLB after Jones and Worilds.

The fact is, the comment is being blown out of proportion as it is because it was said off the cuff and it's more likely than not that James Harrison can call it a career.

@calfoxwc said:

ah, baloney. The sacks are simply because:

1. Rapistbooger got the ball out, FAST. And the wr's are tall, and owens and skrine

are midgets.

2. They threw all over Carder, and sorry, Buster fans,

but Skrine is too freakin short, and often finds himself

out of position to boot. He's a great special teams player,

and occasional nickle back, depending.

3. They played to the Browns weakness - throwing quickly, and

using the weather to pound on a couple of the Browns' linebackers.

Rapistbooger - did you actually just say that? Which are you, a 5th grader who still calls people poopyfaces or one of the mindless morons who lack the ability to think for themselves and let whatever they hear from the media with the sole agenda of getting people to respond to innuendo (see Mike Florio) - I suppose you think Jamieus Winston is just as guilty.

Instead of resorting to stupid comments - its pretty simple what happened today: the Pittsburgh Steelers are simply a superior team to the Cleveland Browns.

The Steelers Offensive Line - which has struggled this year; is simply not as bad as the stats indicate - and in fact it is getting better because two players who were very high draft picks and missed most of 2012 are gaining traction (David DeCastro at RG and Marcus Gilbert at RT). DeCastro is especially becoming effective - dominating Suh and Fairley two weeks ago and manhandling Taylor today. Gilbert had a good rookie year in 2011 - and after a slow start right side of the Steelers line is getting settled. When their best lineman Maurkice Pouncey returns next year (and if Adams can at all improve enough to push to start at LT) the Steelers OL problems will be a thing of the past.

This is not the same Steelers team that started 0-4.

• Le'Veon Bell - is giving the Steelers better balance at the RB position and making plays
• Heath Miller - the Steelers team MVP in 2012 is the best TE no one talks about; was still recovering from a knee injury suffered in Week 17 last year
• Antonio Brown - had a slow start but is leading the NFL in catches (74 for 952) and on Thursday will be the 3rd WR this year to top 1000 yards - probably will break the franchise record for catches & yards (Ward - 112 & Thigpen - 1398) in the same season.

Ironic - I do remember how in 2007, this board was ablaze with how superior Kellen Winslow and Brandon Edwards were to Steelers counterparts Heath Miller and Hines Ward. Yet Winslow and Edwards were all but given away and bounced around the league. Of course there were some fools from the old Akron Beacon Journal msg board who claimed Charlie Frye was better than Roethlisberger

And at the end of the day - to make it simple - the biggest difference between these teams is BEN ROETHILSBERGER.

• You hate him because he always beats you - the only time the Browns have beaten him was when he was playing very hurt.
• The highlight of your 2011 season was the severe high ankle sprain that effectively ruined the Steelers playoff chances in a 12-4 season; it possibly cost the Steelers another Super Bowl and your radio stations were full of callers celebrating it as if it were 1986 and the Browns/Kosar were about to play Denver in the AFC Championship.
• You wanted him to be guilty of sexual assault, even though he was innocent, (although you would never let the facts get in the way of your opinion) - which is disgusting. You wanted a rape to have occured just because he is a Quarterback of a rival team - shows where your priorities in life are.
• And you hate him because he was sitting right there at pick #7 in 2004 - with no need to have the Matt Millen led Detriot Lions fleece you out of a 2nd round pick; and he was an Ohio born and raised Quarterback but your organization chose to go with a TE who is hanging onto his career by a thread with the Jets

@wrrebel said:

Yup the most over rated coach probably in NFL history. Not saying he is an awful coach but isnt a great one.

He was going to be fired in NE before Bledsoe got hurt. Amazing how smart a ELITE Franchise QB makes you.

you can say the same about Tony Dungy and Jim Caldwell. They had the best QB in the game in his prime and won 1 superbowl...

Sad thing is we haven't had a compatent coach since we have been back and were missing the franchise guy as well

I am no fan of Belichick, on what basis can you state Belichick was going to be fired before Bledsoe was hurt?

You act like having a great QB is the only thing needed to win a Super Bowl - Tony Dungy had the best QB and the game and won "only" one Super Bowl as if a Super Bowl is an easy thing to get. The Colts had to overcome the Steelers and Patriots - who combined to reach 8 Super Bowls from 2001-2011.

Dan Reeves was 0-3 in the Super Bowl with John Elway. Bud Grant was 0-3 with Fran Tarkenton. Marv Levy was 0-4 with Jim Kelly. Mike Holmgren was 1-1 with Brett Favre. Don Shula only reached 1 Super with Dan

It takes more than just a QB. A lot of great QBs do not win Super Bowls. Ken Anderson, Boomer Esiason, Rich Gannon all won MVPs with career years at QB and failed in the Super Bowl.

Try and recognize it takes a team effort with that QB play to win a Super Bowl - and for a fan base that has never won a Super Bowl, one would think you'd consider a Super Bowl win with a little more regard.

@halfsane said:

the guy coached for 16 years? and won 1 superbowl. Doesn't seem that great to me.

To put things in perspective: Since the merger, there have been a total of 316 head coaches with every team having at least 8 head coaches with the exception of the Steelers and 5 expansion teams (Ravens, Texans, Jags, Panthers, Texans). Less than 30 percent of those coaches have posted a winning record.

Cowher coached for 15 (not 16 seasons). During his tenure, no team in the league won more games and only 14 coaches have more wins who coached in the Modern Era. In the post season, Cowher and Tom Coughlin have 12 wins, a number surpassed by only 6 coaches (Belichick, Landry, Noll, Shula, Gibbs and Holmgren).

Perspective:

316 Head Coaches since 1970 and out of the 46 Super Bowls, only 13 Head Coaches have multiple Super Bowl wins - and 15 Head Coaches have "ONLY" 1 Super Bowl win.

Curious, if that isn't "that great" to you, what would be?

If Cowher led the Browns to 161 wins, 10 playoff appearances, 8 Division titles, 2 AFC Championships and a Super Bowl - would you consider that to be "not that great"?

@the-cysko-kid said:

What in your opinion is the best overall decade in football history? And why? This will probably be largely subjective but I'm interested in what decade will be the winner.

My vote goes for the 80's. Some of the best quarterbacks of all time had their heydays in the 80s, not to mention the last time the Browns were respectable

Some of the best QBs were in their heyday in other decades too - the 1980s aren't any greater than any other decade.

1970s: Terry Bradshaw, Roger Staubach, Bob Griese, Fran Tarkenton, Ken Stabler

1990s: Troy Aikman, Jim Kelly, Brett Favre, Steve Young

2000s: Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Eli Manning, Ben Roethlisberger, Drew Brees

The 1980s also were a decade of the absolute worst Super Bowls - while the 2000s have featured the greatest Super Bowl games ever; the Patriots 16-0 season, two of the greatest Super Bowl upsets ever (Rams vs. Patriots, Giants vs. Patriots), games determined in the final seconds, records broken.

lacked any of the great rivalries like Steelers vs. Raiders, Steelers vs. Cowboys, 49ers vs. Cowboys, Patriots vs. Colts

How that compares to the Browns having some relevance I am not sure....

@the-gipper said:

Perhaps, but I got out. You will die there.

Again, fool. The fact that you have experienced winning titles, as I said, makes the Tebow sticking one up your ass a bit more tolerable.

The other thing that perhaps makes you take it easier is the fact that you arrogant enough to THINK that your team will be back there again and win again. When that doesn't happen in the next 20 years, you will look back and realize that Tebow shoving your football up your collective asses was the death knell of any so called Steeler dynasty.

Please, you don't even have the brains to understand the wisdom of what I am saying.

In your world, does everyone succeed every time they attempt something? No - because that is not real life. Anyone who succeeds also fails at times - it's how you react to those failures that makes the difference. I am not even going to bother with explaining the rest to you because in your world, you really just don't get it.

As far as why the Steelers will continue to win - you guys are like the boy who cried wolf when it comes to how the Steelers are in decline and the Browns are rising. Prior to 2010, that's all Tony Grossi could sputter out: Rooney is gone, Roethlisberger was nearly traded and is one mistake from being gone, Holmes is gone. Steelers are old and in trouble. All they did was win the AFC in 2010.

Here is why the Steelers will continue to win:

The Rooney's: Art Rooney II is the Steelers President and has run the team for the last decade, the way Dan did prior. Dan Rooney is able to, as Chairman of the Board/Owner - have more of a personal relationship with the players, like the Chief did. When Noll retired, it began the current approach: President, Director of Football Operations, Head Coach: which originally was Dan, Tom Donahoe, Bill Cowher. Currently, that is Art, Kevin Colbert and Mike Tomlin - with Colbert in the official role of GM. The only time the Steelers have struggled was when the feud between Cowher and Donahoe was no longer reconcilable (1998-1999). Dan made a then controversial decision about keeping Cowher over Donahoe, but it turned out to be the right one - as Kevin Colbert is a phenomenal GM. Mike Tomlin's hiring was a surprise - if he went to just about any other team it would have not worked out as well so quickly. Tomlin still is learning and was very inexperienced, but surrounded by an established structure, he was able to succeed by not having to concentrate on responsibilities outside his areas of expertise. This stability is the secret to the Steelers success.

Why the Steelers defense is always so good:

Since the Steelers began the zone-blitz scheme out of their existing 3-4 in 1992, they have finished in the top ten 17 out of 20 years - their lowest ranking was 13th in 1992 and have been in the top ten every year since 2000 (the other two were the 98-99 seasons during the Cowher/Donahoe feud. Although Dom Capers was Bill Cowher's original Defensive Coordinator, it was Dick LeBeau who provided the defensive scheme. And even when Dick LeBeau left for a time, they still incorporated the same strategy and have been drafting players to fit it, sometimes taking several years to develop them. Some have been huge failures while others have been enormous success. Take James Harrison for example - while Browns fans accuse him of taking HGH for his seemingly overnight success, there was nothing overnight about it. Harrison always had the athletic ability, what he didn't have was the understanding of the complexity of an NFL defense. He wasn't going to take the spot of Joey Porter - but over 2004-2006, he learned a lot about how to play. When he finally got his chance in 2007, he made the Pro Bowl then in 08 was Defensive MVP. This same patience has seen Brett Kiesel, Chris Hoke, Ike Taylor, James Farrior, Larry Foote, Chris Hope, Ryan Clark all become key components of the best defense of the decade.

Because they don't try to reboot every 4 years, the Steelers coaches can take the time to develop players - which is why every time Browns fans start to rejoice about "player X" leaving, "player Y" steps up and performs. It's not accident or coincidence when a James Harrison steps in for a Joey Porter and succeeds. In 2012, Lawrence Timmons (who played all 4 LB spots in 2011 to cover for injuries) will be the featured ILB the way Farrior was all decade, DE Ziggy Hood will anchor the line and CB Keenan Lewis will move from Nickel Back to starting CB. In the same way - OLB Jason Worilds, DE Cameron Heyward, CB Cortez Allen and CB Curtis Brown will begin their phase in process and playing in the rotation.

Why are the Steelers drafts always successful:

The Steelers do not rely on one person to make their selections - it's a group effort with Colbert leading the way at GM. Prior to Colbert, the Steelers never traded up in the 1st round, but he did so twice: acquiring Polamalu and Holmes. Both worked out pretty good. He's done it in the later rounds as well, some have worked, others haven't - but its always a draft for the best player. There is luck involved - getting Ben at #11 in 2004 was rare, but 2007 the sites were on Darrelle Revis and the Jets jumped in with a trade ahead of them to take him. But the Steelers have a system that is tried and true and has been successful.

Offensively - Last year after the injuries to Roethlisberger, Mendenhall and Pouncey, the Cleveland airwaves were celebrating like you just won the game. The truth is, those injuries may very well have cost the Steelers the Super Bowl. Fully healthy, they were better than any team in the AFC. But the injury, particularly the one to Ben, was impossible to overcome - and it was noticed.

• 
   
  
• ARII Noticed - Art Rooney II recognized the difference between a healthy Ben and not. If Ben doesn't adjust his game, he'll be Steve McNair, if he does - he'll be John Elway - Rooney is making sure its the later.
  
• Arians out: Arians was a horrible O.C., even with 2 AFC Championships. The 2008 Steelers had the 2nd worst offensive ranking of any Super Bowl team ever - even the 2000 Ravens, 1982 Dolphins and 2006 Bears finished higher - which considering the talent was inexcusable. Arians was very predictable with his play calling and the most success came when they ran the no-huddle (something Todd Haley has already noticed)
  
• Haley in: He resurrected the career of Kurt Warner and made a Pro Bowl QB out of Matt Cassell. His offenses have led the NFL in rushing and passing depending on the personnel. He's abrasive and there will be drama - but there's a Head Coach in Tomlin there to work with friction and Roethlisberger could use the disciplined coach.
  
• Offensive Line: Pouncey is All-Pro, a pair of #2 picks at OT in Marcus Gilbert and Mike Adams and #1 pick David DeCastro at Guard - on talent alone this unit is better than any the Steelers have had since 2005.
  

There is the reality - their biggest issue will be working out contracts with Wallace, Brown, Sanders and Mendenhall. The Denver game - why its not a big deal is the same reason that other fluke playoff losses aren't:

1987 49ers to Vikings

1996 Broncos to Jaguars

2008 Colts to Chargers

2010 Saints to Seahawks

2010 Patriots to Jets

Each of those games were major upsets, with the Colts and Saints in particular playing teams on the road despite significantly better records. Heck, the Seahawks were 7-9. They happen - you learn from it and improve.

In 1977, the Steelers lost to the Broncos in a playoff loss that many said was the end of that Steelers team. How'd that work out?

You just got a very rational and detailed explanation of what makes the Steelers successful. I doubt you'll understand it, because in your world, nobody fails ever, Akron is the same place as Cleveland, NFL Championships in 1922 are the same as the Super Bowl, the Cleveland Rams are a team that you take pride in and consider part of your own championship heritage.

In short, you're a fool. But you're the fool I get to make fun of

@taco918 said:

Loserville, thats creative. I can only assume you'll follow any retort on his part by calling him a butthead or a meanie face.

As typical of a Browns fan, you are incorrect.

Look to your own Gipper, the POS that makes jokes about the 911 attacks, as the originator of "loserville". I just reintroduced his own ignorance back to him.

Not one of you on this board have ever proven the ability to talk football without making a fool of yourself, you all always have to go off the reservation because you're being embarrassed when trying to talk football. You have a fool like Gipper who thinks a fluke playoff loss when the Steelers were loaded with injuries is a major disappointment for the franchise - it's nothing compared to 1994, 1995, 1997, 2001, 2010.

And you all lack the ability to see 5 minutes in front of you. The loss last year was a blessing in disguise. It led to the removal of Arians, the drafting of talented OL prospects and the directive from ownership and coaching to make an effort to protect Ben - so he isn't exposed to as many injuries. You all celebrated his injury last year, but completely miss that it likely added 3 more years to his career.

@the-gipper said:

I understand where he is coming from. Some wise person said: "the losses always sting worse than the victories feel good". I capiche. (and it is also why I son't buy FSG BS)

That's because you're so stupid, you don't know the difference between being able to handle a loss and being able to handle losing.

My world didn't fall apart because the Steelers lost a playoff game against an inferior team. But your inability to comprehend that mentality is what makes you who you are.

Welcome to loserville - that is where you have been born and raised.

@the-gipper said:

Of course we all know of the heartbreak that the Browns have suffered with games like "The Drive" "The Fumble" "Red Right 88"...and I think that the 2002 loss to the Steelers when they had a 17 point lead can fall right in there (though I don't think that one caught a catchy moniker).

But NO, it is not my intent here to cry in my own beer, but to revel in the misery of other teams who have to cry in their beer.

Think of and list those instances where other teams have had to endure their misery as the Browns have had to. A couple of good examples to start....and with these I am only going back to last year, and I am reveling in the misery of the Browns biggest rivals:

A. Start with "The Drop". Lee Evans of the Ravens drops a TD pass in his hands that would have allowed them to beat the Pats and go to the SuperBowl.

Let Ravens fans stew on that.

B. Steelers get "Tebowed". Broncos defeat Steelers in OT when a pass from Tim Tebow to Darius Thomas leaves the Steeler secondary in the dust.

Up your nose with a rubber hose, Steeler fans.

I mention these because they are such sweet "fuckyous" to our friends.

Carry on though and name other games of this ilk.....and so as to remind ourselves that not we alone have to live in misery.

(But, yes, I do note paranthetically that the Steelers and Ravens have had fairly recent title runs. So what. Lets remind them of the bad times, not the good).

Not that you are ever right - I mean, besides being old, crotchety and nasty - you're also senile.

I will grant that the Ravens blown Super Bowl chance in the AFC Championship will sting for a long time, because those tend to do so.....

But do you really think that the Steelers OT loss last year stings that bad? By the end of the game, the injuries piled up too much to overcome, so we knew the season was over. Sucked - but it was over.

The problem you have is this - when you routinely are challenging as deep as the Conference Championship Game and deeper (and winning) - a year that witnessed a one and done isn't quite that devastating.

The 13-2 1987 49ers world didn't fall apart after an upset loss to the 8-7 Vikings.

The 13-3 1996 Broncos recovered quite nicely from a shocker of a loss to 9-7 Jaguars

The 14-2 2005 Colts were at one point considered one of the best teams ever, but they came back nice after loss to 11-5 Pittsburgh

The 10-6 2007 Steelers lost to a team at home twice in the same season, Jaguars, but 2008 worked out okay

The list can go on a lot longer - point being is that a team is 15 years removed from the closest they ever came to reaching the Super Bowl trying to taunt a team that has been to 3 and won 2 recently for one 0-1 post-season is pretty sad.

@choco said:

oh, ive never seen hyperbole before.

if you're gonna run into our house and demand us be reasonable when talking about you, then try being reasonable first.

you fucking illiterates dont come here to talk football, you come here to gloat.....seemingly about anything and everything you can....whether its based on fact or not. so, you can very kindly fuck off and and go dip it in your big sister again. keep that gene pool in pittsburgh clean.

i'd be more than happy to talk football with you guys, as i live in pittsburgh, work in pittsburgh, and am surrounded by pitttsburghers. you guys seem to be the young generation of fan that has no respect, no knowledge, and no history to remember...the idiots that call into talk radio to bitch about pedro last month, and turn around to call in to put him at #4 because he's been able to make contact with the ball over the last 3 weeks. you're as fair weather as they come....as you dont have any clue what real pittsburgh fans endured years ago. kinda like the pirates now....except the city and fans abandoned that team 15 years ago.

for a city that knows what it feels like to field a perennial loser in such a storied franchise in the pirates...afterall, much like the browns, a good portion of the pitt population has never seen a winning season, i figured i'd see more compassion rather than attitude.

so lets recap....completely fairweather fans that abandoned the bucs long ago. every year, the Nuttings spend the least amount possible and gladly rape the city and few fans for everything they can. good luck extending the record for most consective losing seasons....i'd say you should be proud, but you dont care.

oh the pens....one of the most talented teams in the NHL that can't seem to get past the first round of the playoffs. yeah, its nice to at least get there. its worse when you've got sydney crosby and the NHL scoring leader, yet can't get past the instate rival that owns you in the consol energy center, made you look foolish with the jagr deal, and embarrassed you time after time on the ice. remember what the pens looked like before shiro and crosby? nope....you dont, cause you didn't care. if not for a one mario lemeuiescsiurhjsoisx, you wouldn't even have a hockey team.

then the steelers....the one almost constant in the city. know why this city breathes football? cause you're other sports suck. it was the pirates well before football ever became big here.....ironically, right around the time the pathetic steelers franchise started compromising the health of its players to be relevant.

i'd love to have a real conversation with you guys....but considering that your relative intelligence compared with those i normally talk with is very sub-par, i see no reason to respond. perhaps if you could drop the facade of "the city of champions" and realize all you have is a good football team, stop condescending like your shit doesn't stink, and stop making shit up......maybe i'll respond in kind. otherwise, you just continue to perpetuate what everyone already think about you....you're a dying city with nothing but a fucking football team to cheer for.

You want a real conversation - then you post that bunch of crap you just did?

Let's compare cities first - you call Pittsburgh a dying city? Are you clueless. Why is it that PNC Bank was able to buy out National City? Do you have the even the slightest clue about economics? Pittsburgh is one of the better areas of the country for employment and growth - providing people want to do work (even if it is labor and not white collar). It was not hurt by the real estate boom and bust - where Cleveland has been among the most dying areas of the country with the 3rd lowest High School graduation rate in the country.

Comparing franchises: Throwing the Penguins under the bus because they lost in the 1st round of the playoffs this year. I perfectly remember what the Penguins looked like before Shero and Crosby. Craig Patrick built a team that included Kevin Stevens, Jaromir Jagr, Ron Francis, Paul Coffey and more - enough to win back to back Stanley Cups. They went through a very difficult period because a series of owners mishandled the franchise and put them into dire straights. There would not be a team there if not for Lemieux - but just because the team lost this year in the playoffs does not mean they are not a team worth rooting for. That is among the dumbest comments ever - they have some of the brightest young stars in the game and were in the Stanley Cup Finals on back to back years not very long ago - including winning the Championship.

You berate the Penguins because of what Jagr did?

How about you take a closer look at the Cavaliers? LeBron James has a special show to announce he's leaving town (at least Sidney Crosby hasn't left town). What about Carlos Boozer - does that one still sting? Brad Daugherty wouldn't even attend his own jersey retirement ceremony. The NBA Owners had their chance to fix the game, but didn't have the balls to see it through, instead the league is more about the name on the back of the jersey than the front - and you can bet whoever it is the Cavaliers develop into a good basketball player will leave town just like every other spoiled NBA player.

The Pittsburgh Pirates? It disgusts me, but I never turned on the Pirates, just all of MLB altogether. When a league is set up so disproportionately what is the point of putting your heart into it. The Indians are in no better shape, any player developed into a star will leave for more money anyway. MLB dropped the ball when they had their chance in 1994 and the league will never be fixed.

I grew up in Ohio when the Browns made their late 80s run and I had to endure enough trash talk for a lifetime. Then, soon as things didn't go their way I can never forget hearing garbage like - I don't care if the Browns win, I hope they lose because they cut Bernie and I won't root for them as long as Belichick is the coach. What a load of crap. Then when the Browns came back, the running of the mouth began again, even before the first game - how the Browns were going to win 35-0.

I personally loved the excuse about how the NFL wasn't fair to the Browns and didn't give them the same advantages that the Jaguars and Panthers had. Every year its been a new excuse and every year it's been how the Steelers are in decline and the Browns will over take them.

You say that Pittsburgh only has the Steelers to root for - when that is not true - but based on your logic than Cleveland doesn't have a single team to root for. Maybe that's why you continously see idiots like Gipper say that AAFC Championships are more valuable than Super Bowls.

Any city that has a jackass like him who akins rooting for another team as cheering for the WTC attacks deserves everything it gets. I don't lump everyone into the category of that piece of shit - who I would happily punch in the face for that kind of classless, piece of shit remark. I know for a fact that the talk shows were all celebrating the injury to Roethlisberger last year as if the Browns won the game, because it took the Steelers out of contention. They don't have the brains enough to realize that injury led to a Steelers O.C. change and the drafting of offensive lineman - in addition to the owner intervening and wanting Ben to tweak his game so he stays more injury free. Not that celebrating someone getting hurt is classless enough.

The problem with Cleveland fans on this board is they don't want to be told the truth and they are a bunch of excuse makers. I come on here for a good laugh at the stupidity and the blatant homerism that is comical.

If you want an intelligent conversation, start with providing one yourself.

@the-gipper said:

OK, the Brackets are down to the last two teams. The Championship matchup is between:

The undefeated 1948 Cleveland Browns

VS.

The 1985 Chicago Bears who were 18-1

Your vote:

I knew I could count on you Gipper - you know the Weekly World News history of reporting absurd stories while claiming they were nothing but the truth? If you didn't work for a Tabloid, you really missed your true calling. I can always count on you to post something so ridiculous, hypocritical, baseless and innacurate that it makes me laugh.

It's perfectly reasonable to expect a group of Browns fans to believe that their teams most successful season would rank among the greatest teams ever - obviously you realize enough to say Championship Game instead of NFL History because the 1948 Browns "undefeated" season is not recognized as such by the NFL.

The 1948 Browns played against 7 teams the entire season, only one of which - the 49ers - had a winning record. The composite record of their opponents was 84-112. While it is true that the majority of Super Bowl winners have ultimately faced weak regular season schedules: the 1999 Rams faced a paltry composite record of 93-163 from their opponents during the regular season and the 1970 Baltimore Colts faced a record of 67-119-9. In reality, out of 46 Super Bowl winners, only 7 faced a regular season schedule with a composite W/L record over .500.

However, every one of those Super Bowl teams still had to play through a post-season in order to qualify for a Super Bowl berth, playing against teams that were equally capable of winning the league championship. Just this past season, the Packers became the 3rd consecutive team to finish a regular season 15-1 but not reach the Super Bowl. Constrast this to the Browns, who did not have to play a single playoff game prior to the championship game, they also played against a 7-7 team in the championship game. Without looking it up, 99% of Browns fans would not even know they played in that championship game, much less a player on that team.

Maybe it does not matter, the team would be defunct 12 months after it "earned" the right to play for the prestigous AAFC Championship. And considering this is the Gipper we're talking about - you have to know that the Browns victory over that team was more impressive than the Steelers defeat of the Dallas Cowboys in Super Bowl XIII -- the only Super Bowl to date that featured QBs with 2 Super Bowl wins and fielded the most Hall of Famers competing against each other than any previous Super Bowl.

For the record:

When ranking the composite records faced by Super Bowl winning teams, the 1979 Steelers (135-121) and 2008 Steelers (133-120-3) are #1 and #2 in that category.

But, it's typical. You are desperately trying to overcome your inferiority complex to the Steelers which manifests itself

Hypocrisy: Calling James Harrison dirty while celebrating Turkey Jones slam of Terry Bradshaw as one of the greatest plays in team history

Hypocrisy 2: Admitting to enjoying when a bad call is made against Steelers (Joe Nedney), but crying of a fix if the Steelers get a call

Denial: The NFL Fact and Record Book does not recognize AAFC Championships and lists NFL Championships in category of Conference Championships

Jealousy: The belief that the 8 combined Championships in Cleveland (439 championships if its Gipper talking)is superior to 6 Super Bowls

Delusional: Any change on the Steelers means that they are in decline and the Browns will soon pass them - same story for over 2 decades

Embarrassment: While the Steelers fans utilize a Gold Towel as a symbol while cheering, Browns fans throw beer bottles and dog bones on the field

Desperation: Having to resort to non-football methods of "attack" because on the field, the Steelers own the Browns so much you have nothing

By the way, I still haven't forgotten your comment about cheering the WTC attack. I don't care about any insults, but for that level of classlessness you really do deserve to be thrown into a room with surviving friends of NYC Firefighers and Police who died that day and get your ass kicked. But please, continue to post your dim-witted and pathetic attempts to validate "Cleveland" championships from defunct franchises and other stupidity - it's a hobby to come on here every once in a while to destroy the fantasy world that you live in by giving you the dose of reality in the form of fact - the fact that the team you root for absolutely sucks, and so do you.

@the-gipper said:

See, this is where you are pathetic - Steelers fans DO NOT discredit NFL Championships prior to 1974.

Isn't that exactly what you did when you said that the Akron Pros and Canton Bulldogs etc. don't count, cunt?

How ignorant are you really? The NFL itself did not have a championship game from 1920-1932, they did not have a balanced schedule, they did not have an organized league. The NFL of that era bears no resemblance to the one that would exist even 20 years later, to say nothing of today - it was not the full time job of players, it was a barnstorming league and since championships were awarded, no less than 4 were disputed - including to this day the Pottsville Maroons NFL Championship in 1925. You sound like a damn fool - I am referring to actual NFL History, you are desperately trying to make Cleveland stand out as the greatest NFL team of all time - using 5 different teams as one to do it.

Why do you consider Akron and Canton as NE Ohio franchises to be interchangeable with Cleveland? You are the one that keeps saying CLEVELAND has 13 NFL Championships when the history books clearly indicate they do not. NE Ohio is NOT Cleveland. Akron is not Cleveland. Canton is not Cleveland.

It's actually fun, watching you desperately and feebly attempt to legitimize football championships in Cleveland. You embarrass yourself more and more each time.

Here are the facts: the NFL Record and Fact Book lists NFL/AFL Championships prior to the Super Bowl in the same classification as NFC/AFC Championships. What that means is, at best, you have half as many NFL Championships as the Steelers do, and 6 less Super Bowls which - in case you haven't noticed, is what the teams currently play for.

Just look at the Giants Super Bowl ring design - it features 4 Lombardi Trophies on it, signifying the 4 Super Bowls. Green Bay did the same thing last year.

I know it sucks to be you - but you're a pompous ass anyway for the WTC comments - the reality is that you've been rooting for a loser for over 40 years. You accuse Pittsburgh fans of not acknowledging the NFL since 1974, but Cleveland Browns fans like you seem to think the only NFL that matters is what happened before 1964.

@the-gipper said:

Too few and far between. I do notice that the guys that did make any plays on these are the guys that Ghoolie keeps wanting to get rid of: Hillis, Cribbs, McCoy. Well, Hillis is gone, but I did see Hardesty on some highlights.

Though, I have no clue why we needed McCoy highlights from college.

Just go plug in the highlight video of the 1945 Rams then, since you were such a big fan. You have all those championship DVDs to watch....

I can't wait till they come up with America's Game, the 1996-1998 Cleveland Browns, the best Browns teams of the Modern Era.

@tour2ma said:

In case I miss any of their rounds, please consider this my Absentee Ballot(s) for the greatest team of all time, the '85 Bears.

The 1985 Bears being considered the greatest team ever is the most media hyped BS ever. There are essentially 4 types of Super Bowl teams - the loser, the team that only wins one, the team that wins one and reaches another and the multiple time champions.

From 1970 to 1999, every single Super Bowl Champion had, at minimum, reached another Super Bowl within a 4 year period with 2 exceptions.

1994 49ers - were 5 years removed from their back to back 1988-1989 Championships and played in 3 NFC Championship Games, losing to eventual champions Giants and Cowboys (2x).

1985 Bears - who won only 1 other playoff game in the combined 4 years preceeding and post their 1985 season. The 1985 Bears played arguably the weakest team to ever reach a Super Bowl - if not for the Patriots upset of the Dolphins, the spread offense of the Dolphins was a nightmare match-up for the 46, which is why teams don't use it anymore period.

And before anyone starts rambling on about Jim McMahon being hurt, its not like his performance was elite anyway - even for the era. Both the 87 Redskins and 90 Giants won the Super Bowl with back up QBs. The Bears were over rated, had a scheme that was difficult to match up to at first but then figured out, and were arrogant and cocky for their own good.

Considering the teams that managed to repeat as champions - its an insult to even mention the 1985 Bears next to any of them.

Of course my vote is for the Akron Pros - you know - one of Cleveland's 13 Championships according to Gipper. I called a local radio talk show here in Florida about that - they about laughed that notion off the show as an embarrassment.

@nickers said:

Again. Prime example of a Stooler Fag that thinks Championships didnt count until 1974...A Championship is a Championship regardless if its called the Superbowl or the Jockstrap bowl...theyre still championships wheter you accept it or not...Now go jack off on your little piss towel.

Typical Stains Failure - this is what makes you the laughingstock of the other NFL franchises and fanbases, well, that and throwing batteries, dog bones and beer bottles onto the field.

Why is it the Giants Super Bowl ring that was leaded featured 4 Lombardi Trophies in the design? Same thing as the Packers last season?

The NFL ITSELF - Source: The NFL Record and Fact Book lists NFL Championships with NFC Championships, same as AFL with AFC. They are STILL CHAMPIONSHIPS. But they did not require a playoff and potentially played on a home field.

Never mind that the Baltimore Colts and Minnesota Vikings won the NFL Championship, and lost the Super Bowl. Which was more significant? By the way, the Browns lost the NFL Championship in both of those years, failing to reach the Super Bowl.

See, this is where you are pathetic - Steelers fans DO NOT discredit NFL Championships prior to 1974. The fact is - the NFL itself, the league in which the teams compete, does not equate them at the same level as the Super Bowl. There is no argument, no room for debate.

If you try to pull out the Pro Football Hall of Fame BS - like your hero Zombo does. The Browns AAFC Championships are no different that the Philadelphia Stars winning the USFL Championship in the eyes of Professional Football. But it is not recognized by the NFL - end of story, period.

I have given nothing but facts, now, on your end - you have a bunch of morons who claim that Steelers fans do not recognize an NFL before 1970, despite being one of 2 franchises with 4 coaches over 50 wins, featured the misfortune of seeing their team attain greatness when Jock Sutherland passed away due to brain cancer right as he finally righted the ship. The fact is, the Steelers history has seen more success than the Browns, who haven't sniffed success save for a 4 year stretch in the late 80s when the rules were circumvented and manipulated by Bernie Kosar so he could play for his hometown team and Ernie Accorsi grabbed up USFL talent.

On your end, you guys desperately stretch for something that you claim that Chuck Noll and Bill Cowher were "Browns guys" - even more laughable because Cowher grew up in Crafton, just outside of Pittsburgh and grew up a Steelers fan. On that logic, the Steelers have Dan Marino and Joe Montana, they grew up in the Pittsburgh area and were Steelers fans, so they are Steelers, according to Browns logic anyway.

The Steelers endured 40 years of bad football, had to re-organize and merge with teams because of WWII, had an owner that loved baseball first and foremost and did not acheive success until his more savvy son took over. Cleveland has seen 1 team go under, another team (that received NO support) leave for LA and another leave for Baltimore - both of which have Super Bowls while the Browns have NONE. For the record, the Browns teams you loved so much, didn't even get 30,000 in attendance for their NFL Championship wins in the 1950s - playing AT HOME. These are facts - not seen through the eyes of a desperate fanbase.

For the record - Steeler Nation is not calling for Hines Ward to be a first ballot Hall of Famer, that is a special honor for a rare level. But, even with the wait - 1000 receptions, 12000 yards, 2nd most post-season receptions all time, 3rd longest consecutive game with a catch streak, Super Bowl MVP, 2 Super Bowl Rings and the single greatest blocker to ever play the position -- football is not played on a computer with numbers, it is played with character, heart, ability and desire.

Close your eyes - imagine the 1987 AFC Championship Game - replace Webster Slaughter with Hines Ward. Do you think Castillo goes completely unblocked, thus causing "the Fumble". Winning games is not a matter of putting up statistics - its a matter of doing everything necessary to win, with both the Glory and the Unglorious. You'd have a Super Bowl win in 1987 if you had Hines Ward istead of a heartbreak because the Browns were better than the Redskins. It was that type of contribution, consistently over 14 years - combined with averaging 85 catches and 1000s yards from 2000-2010 - that were a major reason why the Steelers won 3 AFC Championshps and were the #1 or #2 seed 4 times.

So Gipper, take your ugly and disgusting comparisons to rooting for an NFL team to that of cheering for 9/11 and go shove it. You are dispicable - to anyone who lost a family member in that moment there is nothing funny about it. My best friend was murdered in a home invasion - how about if I compared you to that S.O.B. that shot him -- get it through your thick head there are lines that you don't cross. Zombo, go amuse yourself with your version of humor that if you tried to bring to a Steelers Board like www.steelernation.com, they would beat you down so bad you would need anti-depressants (if you don't take them already - in that case you'd be committed). In fact, I beg you, try it - go there, register - try your BS there - see how long you can last. You won't be banned, because you'll quit coming out of cowardice long before that.

Heck, I don't even try, and I take every one of you to the cleaners every time when comparing the teams. And I don't have to stretch and refer to non-football related garbage like being toothless. I know enough about Cleveland that I could write a book making fun of the people there, but I don't, because it is FOOTBALL, not life, and I have perspective between the two.

By the way, Mike Holmgren is a whiner, egotist and cries when things don't go his way. His history of it is well documented, from how he cried about the Jerry Rice fumble/non-fumble in 1998 and instant replay was reinstated in 1999, to his complaining of Super Bowl XL (any coincidence that after going into halftime complaining about a call that the 2nd play in the 2nd half was a 75 yard TD? -- Interesting how Bill Cowher never put the blame on two teams (Broncos & Patriots) caught and penalized for cheating, nor did he spend a second on the Joe Nedney flop in 2002 playoffs or the Troy Int overturn. Holmgren wanted all the power in GB - to be GM even though it was Ron Wolf that assembled the team including getting Reggie White and trading for Brett Favre - and the latest was his crying over how unfair it was he didn't RGIII in a trade. Yeah, that's great leadership. Turn a blind eye, but if you understand anything about personality and mentality, you'd realize the problems you face going forward.