I think Hoyer should be proud of himself and Browns fans should be thankful that he's allowing us to be competitive while Manziel gets "ready"... but let's be real. This is a guy with a bottom third arm who isn't a threat with his legs and has completed about 56% of his passes from MSU through now, the brink of 30.

He ain't changing at this point. He's not surgically accurate, he isn't strong armed, and he isn't a threat to run. He's Brian Hoyer. He'll be Brian Hoyer next year and the year after that. He's a solid bridge starter and high-end backup in the Cassel-Moore-Fitzpatrick area. I struggle to believe anybody really expects a lot more than that.

I'd bet one of my three balls the Browns end up in the 8-8 to 9-7 area, middle of the league, and Hoyer ends up around 20th-25th in PR, somewhere in the area of 86. He hasn't seen the worst weather or best defenses he'll face.

I think that's a nice beginning for a rising team and an accurate representation of what/who Hoyer is... and that ain't good enough in this 65% completion, 100-ish PR league. The top 10-12 PR QBs are basically your playoff teams, year after year.

Manziel comes with no guarantees... but I feel pretty confident Hoyer is what he is and it ain't enough. Pettine is talking about Hoyer's contract status and the need to evaluate Manziel in the same breath, even as the Browns are alive for a playoff birth. It's a thing. It's an issue.

I wonder how many teams that draft in the top 10 just about every year have gone since 1999 without drafting a top 10 quarterback? That's like 15 drafts ago.

Generally when you suck, it means you don't have a quarterback. And you should draft the best one you can because without a great one, nothing else much matters.

THAT'S the Browns biggest problem. They've had corners and centers and RBs and WRs and pass rushers and just about everything else... but never a great QB.

Also wonder if we're last in Passer Rating over that time. We have to be in the bottom few.

Wait... did someone call Russell Wilson "not so mobile?" Yikes. Get a TV. Or ESPN.com so you know he ran for 569 yards this season.

Did we see what happened to ACTUALLY not-so-mobile Peyton Manning if he tried to throw over 4 yards? He got hit or pushed off his spot, which he hates.

This thread title is correct: It's a pass the ball, rush the passer league. Seattle forced Manning out of his comfort zone like the Giants treated Tom Brady... and the Patriots early treated Peyton Manning. You can't do that to Wilson because he'll roll out, extend the play, and complete the pass.

Like Manziel, against top competition. Or Kaepernick, the NFC runner-up who ran for 524 yards.

It's interesting that Seattle came really close to drafting Wilson in the 2nd round. Of course, now they'd take him top 10, if they could. Nick Foles might be top 10. Best two third round picks I've seen in quite some time.

Then again, last third round pick I saw start that many games that soon was Colt McCoy. Before that, Charlie Frye. Isn't like we haven't tried that route. We just didn't get steals.

Wilson was a steal because of height. Foles because people mistook his 40 time for a lack of mobility... and he's actually plenty mobile and athletic. I'd hate to see Big Ben's 40 time right now. Both guys should've had first round grades on arm talent. McCoy and Frye weren't 5'11" and didn't run 5.14/40s, so why were they available in round 3?

Because they aren't good.

Statues get creamed. Johnny Football escapes. Plus, he'd have the best blindside blocker in football.

But I prefer Hoyer to Campbell on the field, period.

If you're talking about his love of contact, he'll need to get over it and step out of bounds, slide, etc. But he's done pretty well staying healthy... in the SEC.

@jcam222 said:

Shep based on the play style you will get with Manziel and the good possibility he gets creamed wouldn't you prefer having Hoyer there to come in the game over Campbell or Cousins??

I think it's manufactured because I think I caught the original tweet. Just speculation, like, "Hey, maybe O'Brien would trade for Hoyer!"

But if the Browns draft Manziel, I think he's more likely to start day one than anybody, mostly because Shanahan will structure the offense around him like he did RG3 (and I'd sure as hell take how that worked, rookie RB and all). And as a backup/mentor type, Jason Campbell is far more experienced and credible than Hoyer and his 4 starts.

BUT... if you don't intend to start the rookie, I'd take Hoyer over Campbell OR Cousins. All day.

Worst part is, with 6 Pro Bowlers, 46 mill, and 10 picks, the Browns won't be able to help fielding a really talented team. Someone will write this: "Surprise! After what seemed like a circus of a coaching search, Browns win the offseason by signing (NAMES) and drafting (NAMES)."

Then they'll win 10 games and Coach (NAME) is coach of the year, a genius.

Man, that's gonna suck.

Seriously, like five or six years ago, the Bengals were shredded for being cheap, not spending to the cap, drafting horribly, and being the place nobody wanted to go. Not long ago, the Cardinals (and that oppressive heat) were in the same boat.

Then the Cardinals went to the Super Bowl. The Bengals are consistently called one of the league's most talented teams and have gone to the playoffs three straight years.

Uh, hyperbole, anybody?

You don't draft a WR to make your QB position better. You actually draft the QB. Teams have tried... a lot, in fact. It's wagging the dog. The Browns won't be waiting for Garroppolo or Fales to draft their QB in a QB league. Not a prayer.

It's Manziel, Bridgewater, or Bortles. That's the discussion. No team with a clear-cut #1 WR is going to draft another in the top 5 unless his name is Matt Millen. That's absurd. You can't get a return on that investment from a #2 WR (especially with an All Pro TE taking a lot of looks, too).

Horrible idea.

Let's get this clear: If you knew Nick Foles was gonna be that good (I did), you draft him #4 overall without a moment's hesitation. Ditto Russell Wilson (I thought he was too short, so it's a wash). Both teams had their presumed starter in place, the Eagles even more than the Seahawks.

Point: You don't draft a quarterback in the third round assuming he's going to play like a high 1st rounder. It's a happy accident, or value you couldn't pass up.

A+ and some.

@jrb12711 said:

I'll make my point one more time. Manziel through his play and stats had arguably one of the best careers all around in recent memory at the QB position. Pro organizations aren't stupid, they see that the read-option is getting QB's killed when ran consistently. What Manziel has shown is he's a special athlete behind center. That doesn't mean he's going to run around and get killed in the NFL, it shows he can do what Wilson does, what Newton does etc. He's not going to crumple like old man Weeden or the other duds we've had back under there. You can say whatever you want, but it's plain to see Manziel is going to be a franchise player in the NFL. You can call me gay for him all you want, but I just want to see a damn franchise QB in Cleveland.

We don't need a guard, we don't a CB, we need a QB who isn't a slow-thinking moron. Look at the the playoff teams and look at the top 10 teams who are drafting. come May. Some playoff teams have good defenses, some don't. Some bad teams have 3-5 pro bowlers (see our Brownies), some good teams have one or two. The common theme? Playoff teams have franchise QB's and crappy teams don't. The thought of taking a OL guy early and taking another later round QB literally makes me cringe. The Browns will be losers until they have draft the next elite guy, period. I'm willing to bet the nicest 12 pack you know that Manziel will be that guy for a team. I just hope the Browns don't miss him.

A couple things you can count on:

1. Browns next pick will be a QB. #4 overall or #1 overall, can't say. But they won't go into the draft with a top five pick and a gaping hole at QB and decide to wait. It just isn't done.

2. With the talent we have and will add with 40 mill and 10 picks, the Browns won't draft in the top 5 next year and probably not in the top 12. You get your guy when you have the chance, period.

3. You can't WR yourself to great quarterback play. Great quarterbacks make WRs better.

I'm getting this very powerful James Franklin, Johnny Manziel, Jordan Matthews vibe lately. I think it would be received quite positively on the national level, actually.

James Franklin is a buzzy guy, he'd be seen as a get. Offensive mastermind, helped by Chip Kelly success. Stoops rumor was wrong, Browns not pursuing.

Keep in mind, the first person they reached out to "officially" was Gase. I'm almost certain they got word from McDaniels' camp that he was into it this year before firing Chud.

Those three feel like the most likely.

Gonna be hard to get a WR to come to Cleveland until the QB situation is settled. Think we'll be drafting another WR at 25 or 36, possibly another later (slot guy?).

OL, LB, another corner, maybe a TE, those seem like f/a targets to me. We have so much money, I can't imagine letting Ward or Mack walk unless they just really want to. Greco already signed an extension.

Think the team will want to stay young because they're kind of growing up together, which is good. They'll look for as much continuity on the line as possible (Thomas, Greco, Mack, Pinkston, Schwartz?), which almost always pays off. Draft should be about skill positions (QB, WR, RB), including trade-ups wherever necessary. We should turn those 10 picks into 5.

That's Luck for his career: His numbers really aren't that great... but he has an amazing knack for getting red hot when it matters most.

Didn't hurt that Andy Reid had to play corner himself in the fourth quarter (!). Never seen so many key injuries in one playoff game.

I hate to sound like a broken record, but the Browns next draft pick will be a quarterback. It's a done deal. It's the whole reason they traded T-Rich when Weeden sucked, to have trade-up ammunition. We aren't drafting Sammy Watkins, who should get a 120 looks he can't get opposite an All Pro (Gordon).

Yes, the Browns will add WRs, perhaps in the draft AND in free agency. It's not priority #1, especially with two Pro Bowl pass catchers and Dion Lewis returning to catch out of the backfield. It MIGHT be our 25th pick but more likely it's early round 2.

Manziel closed so strong, I really think McNair would love to keep him in Texas and sell out every game. We'd heard earlier in the season that Houston would take Manziel "anywhere, including #1," and now McNair is all but shopping the pick to the Browns. BUT... temper that with Alo telling me he doesn't seem like a Bill O'Brien kind of QB. O'Brien likes big guys so they could trade for Mallett or draft Bortles (maybe at 4).

So the Browns might pick first overall... or fourth... and it could be Bridgewater or Manziel... but yeah, it's gonna be a QB.

Blech. I can't even participate in a conversation that starts with, "If the Browns hire the guy I don't like, I'll quit following them because I know so much better than they do."

Not even sure where that conversation goes.

Browns wanted McDaniels last year after the less realistic star fucking. Banner and Lombardi love him and he made a ton of sense. There are some nice stats on guys getting their second chance as a head coach with a little space in between. So much to learn and then some time to process it... and who better to process with than Belicheck, the prime example of a Second Chancer?

Assuming it's McDaniels, expect the Browns to be forward thinking at the quarterback position. Nobody's run the spread more than McDaniels (in New England) and nobody's found a way to win with Tebow except McDaniels, an early adaptor to the RO.

Man, if that doesn't scream Johnny Manziel, I don't know what does. Could be Mariota, who just might reverse field and come out. Or maybe Brett Hundley gets a year to watch because his ceiling is the highest in the draft. Point being, we won't mind all that much if Jacksonville takes Blake Bortles as many are now suggesting.

But with the talent this team will have accumulated by July (6 Pro Bowlers, 40-some mill in cap, 10 draft picks), I think I could win 8 or 9 games next year.

PS: I agree with Couch to an extent. One thing McDaniels has learned from his travels away from and back to Tom Brady is you ain't winning jack squat without the quarterback. He didn't think the Browns had one and didn't see one in the draft.

Now he does.

Bowles and McDaniels and others lining up to interview. So much for nobody wanting the job!

C'mon. 6 Pro Bowlers if you include Ward, ten draft picks including two first rounders, and more cap space than anybody else? Somebody's gonna look like a genius Coach of the Year in 2014. Just watch.

Get the quarterback and the rest is just piling on.

It's McDaniels, the guy they really wanted last year. I'm all for it. I say draft Manziel, Beckham, and Carlos Hyde (or best back) and let'er roll. Sounds like a party to me. Sure, we'll be "brash," with McDaniels and Johnny Football. Sure, we'll have attitude and fire. Somebody thinks that's bad?

As far as other less pressing needs (another corner, another ILB, another OL, maybe a joker TE), we've got two thirds, two fourths, and a bajillion dollars to spend, more than anybody else.

Along with five Pro Bowlers and an alternate, the next coach is gonna look like a genius, whoever it is. Teams gonna be crazy talented.