Browns vs. Steelers offensive line
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OK, we did it with the Linebackers, now we can do it with the Offensive Line. Here is the two deep depth chart from Ourlads for the Browns and Steelers at each position:
Steelers:
LT Kelvin Beachum, backup Mike Adams
LG Ramon Foster, backup Chris Hubbard
OC Maurkice Pouncey, backup Cody Wallace
RG David DeCastro (Ourlads names no backup at this spot)
RT Marcus Gilbert, backup Mitch Van Dyk
Browns:
LT Joe Thomas, backup Ryan Seymour
RG Joel Bitonio, backup Vinston Painter
OC Alex Mack, backup Nick McDonald
RG John Greco, backup Karim Barton
LT Mitchell Schwartz, backup Michael Bowie
As for who has the advantage as starters: The Browns clearly have the edge on the left side. Both JT and Bitonio are HOF/Pro Bowl talent. The Steeler players may be functional, but our guys are superior probably over any left side of OL in the league.
At center is the closest race in terms that both are high quality players.....when healthy (Pouncey out with injuries the year before...Mack last year.). I give the slight edge to Mack. Mudfly and Tourma can probably espouse on this further as they both do the stat thing.
DeCastro has the edge over Del Greco at RG....now that he is healthy and playing well.
People here complain about The Schwartz, who I think still does a reasonable job. I would rather have him than Gilbert.
I do NOT like our backups that well.....though they may be better than the Steeler backup. I foresee an OL or two drafted early/mid rounds.
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You give the edge to Mack, I'm sure plenty of steelers will give the edge to pouncey. I'm a brown though, and Mack is streets ahead
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Id say it's not even close.....we got em at 4 outta 5 positions(slam dunk) and there's even an argument that Schwartz is better than Gilbert.....but Id call that one a wash.....and you know I love scores and rankings, so just for the sake of it, here are their NFL ranks for 2014...)
Joe Thomas(#3) beats Beachum(#5),,,,
Bitonio(#2) crushes Foster(#18)......
Mack(prjcts to #2) beats Pouncy(#6)
Greco(#6) beats DeCastro(#11)...
Schwartz(#12) falls to Gilbert(#10) (but its close)
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Id say it's not even close.....we got em at 4 outta 5 positions(slam dunk) and there's even an argument that Schwartz is better than Gilbert.....but Id call that one a wash.....and you know I love scores and rankings, so just for the sake of it, here are their NFL ranks for 2014...)
Joe Thomas(#3) beats Beachum(#5),,,,
Bitonio(#2) crushes Foster(#18)......
Mack(prjcts to #2) beats Pouncy(#6)
Greco(#6) beats DeCastro(#11)...
Schwartz(#12) falls to Gilbert(#10) (but its close)
Id say it's not even close.....we got em at 4 outta 5 positions(slam dunk) and there's even an argument that Schwartz is better than Gilbert.....but Id call that one a wash.....and you know I love scores and rankings, so just for the sake of it, here are their NFL ranks for 2014...)
Joe Thomas(#3) beats Beachum(#5),,,,
Bitonio(#2) crushes Foster(#18)......
Mack(prjcts to #2) beats Pouncy(#6)
Greco(#6) beats DeCastro(#11)...
Schwartz(#12) falls to Gilbert(#10) (but its close)
OK, explain this. Is this like these are how each player ranked among all 32 starters in the league? 1-32? Or what?
If so, then both Beachum and Gilbert ranked higher than I would have anticipated. And so did The Schwartz at #12. The way some talk around here you would have thought he was #33.
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The steelers line played pretty well last season and it was their first under munchak. There isnt a whole lot of separation between good lines and very good lines. As long as the qb is staying clean and the offense is clicking its really all that matters. I will be curious to see where things stand after the 2015 season. Beachum is a 7th rounder playing like a first. Foster was undrafted and pouncey maybe played his best season last year with decastro healthy at his right. I'm very pleased with our line at this point. Both lines are good.
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The steelers line played pretty well last season and it was their first under munchak. There isnt a whole lot of separation between good lines and very good lines. As long as the qb is staying clean and the offense is clicking its really all that matters. I will be curious to see where things stand after the 2015 season. Beachum is a 7th rounder playing like a first. Foster was undrafted and pouncey maybe played his best season last year with decastro healthy at his right. I'm very pleased with our line at this point. Both lines are good.
The steelers line played pretty well last season and it was their first under munchak.
I agree that munchak was a very sweet coup for the Steelers to obtain. I honestly think he will have a short lived life there as other teams will be after him for a HC position. (In fact....before they got Pettine I think Munchak was on their list of potentials)
There isnt a whole lot of separation between good lines and very good lines.
OK, but there is between bad lines and good lines.
As long as the qb is staying clean and the offense is clicking its really all that matters.
It helps a lot if that O line is blocking for top quality Skill players....which we know the Steelers have at QB RB and #1 WR.
I will be curious to see where things stand after the 2015 season. Beachum is a 7th rounder playing like a first. Foster was undrafted and pouncey maybe played his best season last year with decastro healthy at his right. I'm very pleased with our line at this point. Both lines are good.
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The steelers line played pretty well last season and it was their first under munchak.
I agree that munchak was a very sweet coup for the Steelers to obtain. I honestly think he will have a short lived life there as other teams will be after him for a HC position. (In fact....before they got Pettine I think Munchak was on their list of potentials)
There isnt a whole lot of separation between good lines and very good lines.
OK, but there is between bad lines and good lines.
As long as the qb is staying clean and the offense is clicking its really all that matters.
It helps a lot if that O line is blocking for top quality Skill players....which we know the Steelers have at QB RB and #1 WR.
I will be curious to see where things stand after the 2015 season. Beachum is a 7th rounder playing like a first. Foster was undrafted and pouncey maybe played his best season last year with decastro healthy at his right. I'm very pleased with our line at this point. Both lines are good.
I actually think munchak is perfectly content but I wouldn't be surprised if someone comes knocking. I also wouldn't be surprised if he refused as I don't believe he enjoyed being a head coach as much...look at lebeau for example. Although he's probably more of an anamoly due to his age. Yes I agree on the jump between bad and very good. The steelers have a pretty damn good line, if the browns are better its not a noticible difference. Yes skill positions help.The steelers line played pretty well last season and it was their first under munchak.
I agree that munchak was a very sweet coup for the Steelers to obtain. I honestly think he will have a short lived life there as other teams will be after him for a HC position. (In fact....before they got Pettine I think Munchak was on their list of potentials)
There isnt a whole lot of separation between good lines and very good lines.
OK, but there is between bad lines and good lines.
As long as the qb is staying clean and the offense is clicking its really all that matters.
It helps a lot if that O line is blocking for top quality Skill players....which we know the Steelers have at QB RB and #1 WR.
I will be curious to see where things stand after the 2015 season. Beachum is a 7th rounder playing like a first. Foster was undrafted and pouncey maybe played his best season last year with decastro healthy at his right. I'm very pleased with our line at this point. Both lines are good.
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Id say it's not even close.....we got em at 4 outta 5 positions(slam dunk) and there's even an argument that Schwartz is better than Gilbert.....but Id call that one a wash.....and you know I love scores and rankings, so just for the sake of it, here are their NFL ranks for 2014...)
Joe Thomas(#3) beats Beachum(#5),,,,
Bitonio(#2) crushes Foster(#18)......
Mack(prjcts to #2) beats Pouncy(#6)
Greco(#6) beats DeCastro(#11)...
Schwartz(#12) falls to Gilbert(#10) (but its close)
Hard to compare given the differing schemes employed... "emphasized" may be the better word choice since there are few "pure" schemes in this copy-cat league.
Greco(#6) beats DeCastro(#11)...
I am so proud of the job John did last year...
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Hard to compare given the differing schemes employed... "emphasized" may be the better word choice since there are few "pure" schemes in this copy-cat league.
I am so proud of the job John did last year...
Sounds like a cop out Tour. "Differing schemes"? I mean, either an OL does his job or he doesn't. I know you have gone in the past at great lengths to analyze the performances of Browns front lines.
Are you saying you can't do the same for the Steelers because their blocking scheme varies from that used by the Browns?
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Hard to compare given the differing schemes employed... "emphasized" may be the better word choice since there are few "pure" schemes in this copy-cat league.
I am so proud of the job John did last year...
Sounds like a cop out Tour. "Differing schemes"? I mean, either an OL does his job or he doesn't. I know you have gone in the past at great lengths to analyze the performances of Browns front lines.
Are you saying you can't do the same for the Steelers because their blocking scheme varies from that used by the Browns?
Sounds like a cop out Tour. "Differing schemes"? I mean, either an OL does his job or he doesn't. I know you have gone in the past at great lengths to analyze the performances of Browns front lines.
Are you saying you can't do the same for the Steelers because their blocking scheme varies from that used by the Browns?
He said the schemes run are different and they are so its hard to compare. Pretty clear.
AKA SNATCH98 or Rorbotron. The boards glorious admins decided to get cute and change my name to "homotron" Classy group of people. (Lost a bet with Columbus king and got banned for a month) -
Scheme should'nt matter all that much.. you can play the position.. or you simply cant.
They are asked to excel at different things in different schemes. Either way pff in October of last year ranked the Browns 1st and the Steelers 4th. Are you really going to challenge the guy that dissects offensive line play on your message board?
AKA SNATCH98 or Rorbotron. The boards glorious admins decided to get cute and change my name to "homotron" Classy group of people. (Lost a bet with Columbus king and got banned for a month) -
Scheme should'nt matter all that much.. you can play the position.. or you simply cant.
They are asked to excel at different things in different schemes. Either way pff in October of last year ranked the Browns 1st and the Steelers 4th. Are you really going to challenge the guy that dissects offensive line play on your message board?
They are asked to excel at different things in different schemes. Either way pff in October of last year ranked the Browns 1st and the Steelers 4th. Are you really going to challenge the guy that dissects offensive line play on your message board?
I'm not challenging anyone to anything.. I just made a simple statement.. that in most cases.. It's true.. Don't over analyze it for more than what it is.
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Hard to compare given the differing schemes employed... "emphasized" may be the better word choice since there are few "pure" schemes in this copy-cat league.
I am so proud of the job John did last year...
Sounds like a cop out Tour. "Differing schemes"? I mean, either an OL does his job or he doesn't. I know you have gone in the past at great lengths to analyze the performances of Browns front lines.
Are you saying you can't do the same for the Steelers because their blocking scheme varies from that used by the Browns?
Are you saying you can't do the same for the Steelers because their blocking scheme varies from that used by the Browns?
Can't? No... I can, but not going to invest 4 hours per game as I do for the Browns. So not surprisingly I haven't evaluated the Steelers at all.
My impression was that the Steeler O-line surprised to the upside in 2014. There were a lot more questions about them as a unit going into the season than there were coming out. Could well be the Munchak factor.
None of which changes that our ZBS leaning scheme has different requirements than their Power leaning scheme. Yes, there is overlap in the skillsets, but they are not the same. The ZBS is more speed/ agility dependent. Case in point was Greco dropping over 20 lb from his 2013 game weight to get quicker.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Sounds like a cop out Tour. "Differing schemes"? I mean, either an OL does his job or he doesn't. I know you have gone in the past at great lengths to analyze the performances of Browns front lines.
Are you saying you can't do the same for the Steelers because their blocking scheme varies from that used by the Browns?
He said the schemes run are different and they are so its hard to compare. Pretty clear.
He said the schemes run are different and they are so its hard to compare. Pretty clear.
I didn't misunderstand him. I just don't buy that the performance of offensive linemen can't be compared just because they run different schemes.
Every QB out there probably runs some sort of "different scheme", yet we don't hesitate to compare Quarterbacks.....or WRs or RBs or any other position.
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Are you saying you can't do the same for the Steelers because their blocking scheme varies from that used by the Browns?
Can't? No... I can, but not going to invest 4 hours per game as I do for the Browns. So not surprisingly I haven't evaluated the Steelers at all.
My impression was that the Steeler O-line surprised to the upside in 2014. There were a lot more questions about them as a unit going into the season than there were coming out. Could well be the Munchak factor.
None of which changes that our ZBS leaning scheme has different requirements than their Power leaning scheme. Yes, there is overlap in the skillsets, but they are not the same. The ZBS is more speed/ agility dependent. Case in point was Greco dropping over 20 lb from his 2013 game weight to get quicker.
Can't? No... I can, but not going to invest 4 hours per game as I do for the Browns. So not surprisingly I haven't evaluated the Steelers at all.
My impression was that the Steeler O-line surprised to the upside in 2014. There were a lot more questions about them as a unit going into the season than there were coming out. Could well be the Munchak factor.
None of which changes that our ZBS leaning scheme has different requirements than their Power leaning scheme. Yes, there is overlap in the skillsets, but they are not the same. The ZBS is more speed/ agility dependent. Case in point was Greco dropping over 20 lb from his 2013 game weight to get quicker.
The steelers actually run a lot of zone blocking under munchak.
AKA SNATCH98 or Rorbotron. The boards glorious admins decided to get cute and change my name to "homotron" Classy group of people. (Lost a bet with Columbus king and got banned for a month) -
Scheme should'nt matter all that much.. you can play the position.. or you simply cant.
They are asked to excel at different things in different schemes. Either way pff in October of last year ranked the Browns 1st and the Steelers 4th. Are you really going to challenge the guy that dissects offensive line play on your message board?
They are asked to excel at different things in different schemes. Either way pff in October of last year ranked the Browns 1st and the Steelers 4th. Are you really going to challenge the guy that dissects offensive line play on your message board?
I will challenge anyone that I think is giving me the runaround.....yes. You certainly know that about me.
A missed block is a missed block in any scheme. A made block is a made block.
Do you think it is just "scheme" that allows a JJ Watt to be so good at what he does?
Do you think Alex Mack could not perform...and be evaluated ...in the Steelers scheme and that Maurkice Pouncey could'n't perform...and be evaluated in the Browns scheme?
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Are you saying you can't do the same for the Steelers because their blocking scheme varies from that used by the Browns?
Can't? No... I can, but not going to invest 4 hours per game as I do for the Browns. So not surprisingly I haven't evaluated the Steelers at all.
My impression was that the Steeler O-line surprised to the upside in 2014. There were a lot more questions about them as a unit going into the season than there were coming out. Could well be the Munchak factor.
None of which changes that our ZBS leaning scheme has different requirements than their Power leaning scheme. Yes, there is overlap in the skillsets, but they are not the same. The ZBS is more speed/ agility dependent. Case in point was Greco dropping over 20 lb from his 2013 game weight to get quicker.
Can't? No... I can, but not going to invest 4 hours per game as I do for the Browns. So not surprisingly I haven't evaluated the Steelers at all.
OK, I can understand that. I wasn't asking for that. Just general impressions. Yes, I would expect to see the results of something "pregraded" like Mudlfly's PFF rankings.
My impression was that the Steeler O-line surprised to the upside in 2014. There were a lot more questions about them as a unit going into the season than there were coming out. Could well be the Munchak factor.
None of which changes that our ZBS leaning scheme has different requirements than their Power leaning scheme. Yes, there is overlap in the skillsets, but they are not the same. The ZBS is more speed/ agility dependent. Case in point was Greco dropping over 20 lb from his 2013 game weight to get quicker.
Sure, sure. But the question remains "how well did each player perform" within the given scheme that a team utilizes.
Again, no, not asking you to do that. Its not that big of a deal. I just thought that there may be some central grading system that looks at it. NFL.com, PFF, whatever.
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Can't? No... I can, but not going to invest 4 hours per game as I do for the Browns. So not surprisingly I haven't evaluated the Steelers at all.
My impression was that the Steeler O-line surprised to the upside in 2014. There were a lot more questions about them as a unit going into the season than there were coming out. Could well be the Munchak factor.
None of which changes that our ZBS leaning scheme has different requirements than their Power leaning scheme. Yes, there is overlap in the skillsets, but they are not the same. The ZBS is more speed/ agility dependent. Case in point was Greco dropping over 20 lb from his 2013 game weight to get quicker.
The steelers actually run a lot of zone blocking under munchak.
The steelers actually run a lot of zone blocking under munchak.
No doubt... I've seen examples of you running it in highlights. As I said there are few pure schemes anymore. But my impression was that the Steelers did not emphasize the ZBS to the extent that we did and were not as proficient as we were running it. Shades of the chicken and egg debate...
And FYI... we deemphasized the ZBS in the middle third of the season. The period after Mack went down and before McDonald/ Seymore developed late.
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Can't? No... I can, but not going to invest 4 hours per game as I do for the Browns. So not surprisingly I haven't evaluated the Steelers at all.
OK, I can understand that. I wasn't asking for that. Just general impressions. Yes, I would expect to see the results of something "pregraded" like Mudlfly's PFF rankings.
My impression was that the Steeler O-line surprised to the upside in 2014. There were a lot more questions about them as a unit going into the season than there were coming out. Could well be the Munchak factor.
None of which changes that our ZBS leaning scheme has different requirements than their Power leaning scheme. Yes, there is overlap in the skillsets, but they are not the same. The ZBS is more speed/ agility dependent. Case in point was Greco dropping over 20 lb from his 2013 game weight to get quicker.
Sure, sure. But the question remains "how well did each player perform" within the given scheme that a team utilizes.
Again, no, not asking you to do that. Its not that big of a deal. I just thought that there may be some central grading system that looks at it. NFL.com, PFF, whatever.
Can't? No... I can, but not going to invest 4 hours per game as I do for the Browns. So not surprisingly I haven't evaluated the Steelers at all.
OK, I can understand that. I wasn't asking for that. Just general impressions. Yes, I would expect to see the results of something "pregraded" like Mudlfly's PFF rankings.
My impression was that the Steeler O-line surprised to the upside in 2014. There were a lot more questions about them as a unit going into the season than there were coming out. Could well be the Munchak factor.
None of which changes that our ZBS leaning scheme has different requirements than their Power leaning scheme. Yes, there is overlap in the skillsets, but they are not the same. The ZBS is more speed/ agility dependent. Case in point was Greco dropping over 20 lb from his 2013 game weight to get quicker.
Sure, sure. But the question remains "how well did each player perform" within the given scheme that a team utilizes.
Again, no, not asking you to do that. Its not that big of a deal. I just thought that there may be some central grading system that looks at it. NFL.com, PFF, whatever.
As of last October Browns 1st, Steelers 4th according to PFF. I already posted the same above.
AKA SNATCH98 or Rorbotron. The boards glorious admins decided to get cute and change my name to "homotron" Classy group of people. (Lost a bet with Columbus king and got banned for a month)
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