Browns vs. Steelers offensive line
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Thanks, but nothing sacred about my O-line grades... Just a guy with an interest, a little O-line experience in the distant past and a lot of time to kill.
No problem and I know its just your opinion. My point was nickers doesn't evaluate anything. Yet he wanted to question your stance with nothing more than a "nah uh"
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Can't? No... I can, but not going to invest 4 hours per game as I do for the Browns. So not surprisingly I haven't evaluated the Steelers at all.
OK, I can understand that. I wasn't asking for that. Just general impressions. Yes, I would expect to see the results of something "pregraded" like Mudlfly's PFF rankings.
My impression was that the Steeler O-line surprised to the upside in 2014. There were a lot more questions about them as a unit going into the season than there were coming out. Could well be the Munchak factor.
None of which changes that our ZBS leaning scheme has different requirements than their Power leaning scheme. Yes, there is overlap in the skillsets, but they are not the same. The ZBS is more speed/ agility dependent. Case in point was Greco dropping over 20 lb from his 2013 game weight to get quicker.
Sure, sure. But the question remains "how well did each player perform" within the given scheme that a team utilizes.
Again, no, not asking you to do that. Its not that big of a deal. I just thought that there may be some central grading system that looks at it. NFL.com, PFF, whatever.
As of last October Browns 1st, Steelers 4th according to PFF. I already posted the same above.
As of last October Browns 1st, Steelers 4th according to PFF. I already posted the same above.
Well, I think that need to be fleshed out a little more. How did each player grade out.
Or, maybe that is what Mudfly pointed out earlier.
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Id say it's not even close.....we got em at 4 outta 5 positions(slam dunk) and there's even an argument that Schwartz is better than Gilbert.....but Id call that one a wash.....and you know I love scores and rankings, so just for the sake of it, here are their NFL ranks for 2014...)
Joe Thomas(#3) beats Beachum(#5),,,,
Bitonio(#2) crushes Foster(#18)......
Mack(prjcts to #2) beats Pouncy(#6)
Greco(#6) beats DeCastro(#11)...
Schwartz(#12) falls to Gilbert(#10) (but its close)
Id say it's not even close.....we got em at 4 outta 5 positions(slam dunk) and there's even an argument that Schwartz is better than Gilbert.....but Id call that one a wash.....and you know I love scores and rankings, so just for the sake of it, here are their NFL ranks for 2014...)
Joe Thomas(#3) beats Beachum(#5),,,,
Bitonio(#2) crushes Foster(#18)......
Mack(prjcts to #2) beats Pouncy(#6)
Greco(#6) beats DeCastro(#11)...
Schwartz(#12) falls to Gilbert(#10) (but its close)
So....the Browns O Line grades out better in 4 of the 5 positions. (That is about what I thought it would be by just my general impressions....I just had a couple of guys switched....)
By the way Mud.....is it possible for you to list how all the AFCN O Lines rank on this thing?
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Id say it's not even close.....we got em at 4 outta 5 positions(slam dunk) and there's even an argument that Schwartz is better than Gilbert.....but Id call that one a wash.....and you know I love scores and rankings, so just for the sake of it, here are their NFL ranks for 2014...)
Joe Thomas(#3) beats Beachum(#5),,,,
Bitonio(#2) crushes Foster(#18)......
Mack(prjcts to #2) beats Pouncy(#6)
Greco(#6) beats DeCastro(#11)...
Schwartz(#12) falls to Gilbert(#10) (but its close)
So....the Browns O Line grades out better in 4 of the 5 positions. (That is about what I thought it would be by just my general impressions....I just had a couple of guys switched....)
By the way Mud.....is it possible for you to list how all the AFCN O Lines rank on this thing?
So....the Browns O Line grades out better in 4 of the 5 positions. (That is about what I thought it would be by just my general impressions....I just had a couple of guys switched....)
By the way Mud.....is it possible for you to list how all the AFCN O Lines rank on this thing?
Lol, do your own research.
AKA SNATCH98 or Rorbotron. The boards glorious admins decided to get cute and change my name to "homotron" Classy group of people. (Lost a bet with Columbus king and got banned for a month) -
Well, I think that need to be fleshed out a little more. How did each player grade out.
Or, maybe that is what Mudfly pointed out earlier.
Right, that is their individual rank in the nfl, by position & PFF rating......I do not have "line scores" per se, but suffice to say if we have 3 top 5 guys, we got the best line(arguably in the whole NFL)...(cant come up with one thats even close, cept maybe Dallas)
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So....the Browns O Line grades out better in 4 of the 5 positions. (That is about what I thought it would be by just my general impressions....I just had a couple of guys switched....)
By the way Mud.....is it possible for you to list how all the AFCN O Lines rank on this thing?
Lol, do your own research.
Lol, do your own research.
Mud has, I believe, a service that he has paid for that compiles this info. PFF I believe. I don't have access to it, so I can't do that. Besides two things: A. We like to share the burden around here. If I just began spewing data everyone would get bored....so I let others in on the action, and B. You really don't want me doing my own research, because every time I do I make mince meat out of one of your delusions, and you just go off and sulk and ignore the facts I post. You must think if you don't see the facts that they will go away.
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Lol, do your own research.
Mud has, I believe, a service that he has paid for that compiles this info. PFF I believe. I don't have access to it, so I can't do that. Besides two things: A. We like to share the burden around here. If I just began spewing data everyone would get bored....so I let others in on the action, and B. You really don't want me doing my own research, because every time I do I make mince meat out of one of your delusions, and you just go off and sulk and ignore the facts I post. You must think if you don't see the facts that they will go away.
Mud has, I believe, a service that he has paid for that compiles this info. PFF I believe. I don't have access to it, so I can't do that. Besides two things: A. We like to share the burden around here. If I just began spewing data everyone would get bored....so I let others in on the action, and B. You really don't want me doing my own research, because every time I do I make mince meat out of one of your delusions, and you just go off and sulk and ignore the facts I post. You must think if you don't see the facts that they will go away.
You are so delusional. You do spew and you are boring and maybe he does have premium access but there is plenty of free information on the site. Mince meat out of what delusions? The steelers are better than the browns? Bell is possibly the best HB in the NFL. Brown is top 5 but arguably the best in the league. He certainly was the best last season. The areas of team strength for the browns aren't drastically better if better at all than the steelers? 1st vs 4th. The Steelers line before the season was rated higher than the browns line. I'm sure its more evident now and heyward is rated better than any dlineman on your roster. The facts show the browns aren't better than the steelers now or 5 years from now.
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Mud has, I believe, a service that he has paid for that compiles this info. PFF I believe. I don't have access to it, so I can't do that. Besides two things: A. We like to share the burden around here. If I just began spewing data everyone would get bored....so I let others in on the action, and B. You really don't want me doing my own research, because every time I do I make mince meat out of one of your delusions, and you just go off and sulk and ignore the facts I post. You must think if you don't see the facts that they will go away.
You are so delusional. You do spew and you are boring and maybe he does have premium access but there is plenty of free information on the site. Mince meat out of what delusions? The steelers are better than the browns? Bell is possibly the best HB in the NFL. Brown is top 5 but arguably the best in the league. He certainly was the best last season. The areas of team strength for the browns aren't drastically better if better at all than the steelers? 1st vs 4th. The Steelers line before the season was rated higher than the browns line. I'm sure its more evident now and heyward is rated better than any dlineman on your roster. The facts show the browns aren't better than the steelers now or 5 years from now.
You are so delusional.
Except, naturally, all my delusions are factual.
You do spew and you are boring and maybe he does have premium access but there is plenty of free information on the site.
If it is so readily available....then YOU do it. YOU research the numbers. I readily admit that I ask for help from others to provide information...because I spend enough time doing this as it is.
I will rely on Mud's resources. If YOU want to refute them, then YOU do the research.
Mince meat out of what delusions? The steelers are better than the browns? Bell is possibly the best HB in the NFL. Brown is top 5 but arguably the best in the league. He certainly was the best last season.
Except of course when it came to rushing...the Browns 2 rookies were just as productive...I guess our two kids must be top 5 if you combine them.
Oops...see that is as statistic you didn't like and ignored. More fool you.
The areas of team strength for the browns aren't drastically better if better at all than the steelers? 1st vs 4th.
Hello, McFly....is anybody home? THAT is the question I asked.
Do you have a problem with the answer?
The Steelers line before the season was rated higher than the browns line.
Now you are delusional.... We are talking offensive line on this thread. You can't even keep straight what unit you are talking about. The Steelers offensive line vastly overachieved....and could still not rate as good as the Browns Ol.
I'm sure its more evident now and heyward is rated better than any dlineman on your roster.
Again....are you keeping yourself straight? We can switch to defensive line....but there is a total separate thread for that.
And NOTHING is evident....at all about Heyward.....
But if you want to do the research and present accurate, neutral evidence of your contention....please feel free.
Again.....that is one of the reason I have asked these questions....to see what neutral parties say about these things. I never claimed I had all the answers.
In other words, prove your point.
The facts show the browns aren't better than the steelers now or 5 years from now.
OK, remind me of the score of the last time the two teams played?
(Insert Jack Nicholson quote herein)
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You are so delusional.
Except, naturally, all my delusions are factual.
You do spew and you are boring and maybe he does have premium access but there is plenty of free information on the site.
If it is so readily available....then YOU do it. YOU research the numbers. I readily admit that I ask for help from others to provide information...because I spend enough time doing this as it is.
I will rely on Mud's resources. If YOU want to refute them, then YOU do the research.
Mince meat out of what delusions? The steelers are better than the browns? Bell is possibly the best HB in the NFL. Brown is top 5 but arguably the best in the league. He certainly was the best last season.
Except of course when it came to rushing...the Browns 2 rookies were just as productive...I guess our two kids must be top 5 if you combine them.
Oops...see that is as statistic you didn't like and ignored. More fool you.
The areas of team strength for the browns aren't drastically better if better at all than the steelers? 1st vs 4th.
Hello, McFly....is anybody home? THAT is the question I asked.
Do you have a problem with the answer?
The Steelers line before the season was rated higher than the browns line.
Now you are delusional.... We are talking offensive line on this thread. You can't even keep straight what unit you are talking about. The Steelers offensive line vastly overachieved....and could still not rate as good as the Browns Ol.
I'm sure its more evident now and heyward is rated better than any dlineman on your roster.
Again....are you keeping yourself straight? We can switch to defensive line....but there is a total separate thread for that.
And NOTHING is evident....at all about Heyward.....
But if you want to do the research and present accurate, neutral evidence of your contention....please feel free.
Again.....that is one of the reason I have asked these questions....to see what neutral parties say about these things. I never claimed I had all the answers.
In other words, prove your point.
The facts show the browns aren't better than the steelers now or 5 years from now.
OK, remind me of the score of the last time the two teams played?
(Insert Jack Nicholson quote herein)
You are so delusional.
Except, naturally, all my delusions are factual.
You do spew and you are boring and maybe he does have premium access but there is plenty of free information on the site.
If it is so readily available....then YOU do it. YOU research the numbers. I readily admit that I ask for help from others to provide information...because I spend enough time doing this as it is.
I will rely on Mud's resources. If YOU want to refute them, then YOU do the research.
Mince meat out of what delusions? The steelers are better than the browns? Bell is possibly the best HB in the NFL. Brown is top 5 but arguably the best in the league. He certainly was the best last season.
Except of course when it came to rushing...the Browns 2 rookies were just as productive...I guess our two kids must be top 5 if you combine them.
Oops...see that is as statistic you didn't like and ignored. More fool you.
The areas of team strength for the browns aren't drastically better if better at all than the steelers? 1st vs 4th.
Hello, McFly....is anybody home? THAT is the question I asked.
Do you have a problem with the answer?
The Steelers line before the season was rated higher than the browns line.
Now you are delusional.... We are talking offensive line on this thread. You can't even keep straight what unit you are talking about. The Steelers offensive line vastly overachieved....and could still not rate as good as the Browns Ol.
I'm sure its more evident now and heyward is rated better than any dlineman on your roster.
Again....are you keeping yourself straight? We can switch to defensive line....but there is a total separate thread for that.
And NOTHING is evident....at all about Heyward.....
But if you want to do the research and present accurate, neutral evidence of your contention....please feel free.
Again.....that is one of the reason I have asked these questions....to see what neutral parties say about these things. I never claimed I had all the answers.
In other words, prove your point.
The facts show the browns aren't better than the steelers now or 5 years from now.
OK, remind me of the score of the last time the two teams played?
(Insert Jack Nicholson quote herein)
I meant to indicate dline in my post but did not, my mistake. I have no interest in going round and round in every thread you start. Heyward was rated the best if just comparing steelers/browns by PFF. I don't feel like linking it. You can do that yourself. You never back anything up with facts. The most factual thing to come from any of these threads have been posts from other people using PFF ranking. You just spew. I'm as tired of going round and round with you as the rest of the board is reading it. My problem is I have a hard time ignoring flat out ignorance. Isn't it funny that I only seem to have to go round and round with you? I don't have that problem with anyone else. Your like the damn wizard from the wizard of oz.
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You are so delusional.
Except, naturally, all my delusions are factual.
You do spew and you are boring and maybe he does have premium access but there is plenty of free information on the site.
If it is so readily available....then YOU do it. YOU research the numbers. I readily admit that I ask for help from others to provide information...because I spend enough time doing this as it is.
I will rely on Mud's resources. If YOU want to refute them, then YOU do the research.
Mince meat out of what delusions? The steelers are better than the browns? Bell is possibly the best HB in the NFL. Brown is top 5 but arguably the best in the league. He certainly was the best last season.
Except of course when it came to rushing...the Browns 2 rookies were just as productive...I guess our two kids must be top 5 if you combine them.
Oops...see that is as statistic you didn't like and ignored. More fool you.
The areas of team strength for the browns aren't drastically better if better at all than the steelers? 1st vs 4th.
Hello, McFly....is anybody home? THAT is the question I asked.
Do you have a problem with the answer?
The Steelers line before the season was rated higher than the browns line.
Now you are delusional.... We are talking offensive line on this thread. You can't even keep straight what unit you are talking about. The Steelers offensive line vastly overachieved....and could still not rate as good as the Browns Ol.
I'm sure its more evident now and heyward is rated better than any dlineman on your roster.
Again....are you keeping yourself straight? We can switch to defensive line....but there is a total separate thread for that.
And NOTHING is evident....at all about Heyward.....
But if you want to do the research and present accurate, neutral evidence of your contention....please feel free.
Again.....that is one of the reason I have asked these questions....to see what neutral parties say about these things. I never claimed I had all the answers.
In other words, prove your point.
The facts show the browns aren't better than the steelers now or 5 years from now.
OK, remind me of the score of the last time the two teams played?
(Insert Jack Nicholson quote herein)
I meant to indicate dline in my post but did not, my mistake. I have no interest in going round and round in every thread you start. Heyward was rated the best if just comparing steelers/browns by PFF. I don't feel like linking it. You can do that yourself. You never back anything up with facts. The most factual thing to come from any of these threads have been posts from other people using PFF ranking. You just spew. I'm as tired of going round and round with you as the rest of the board is reading it. My problem is I have a hard time ignoring flat out ignorance. Isn't it funny that I only seem to have to go round and round with you? I don't have that problem with anyone else. Your like the damn wizard from the wizard of oz.
I meant to indicate dline in my post but did not, my mistake. I have no interest in going round and round in every thread you start.
Then why are you posting in every one? Responding to my every statement?
Heyward was rated the best if just comparing steelers/browns by PFF. I don't feel like linking it. You can do that yourself.
No, I don't trust what you say.....you have been proven factually wrong so many times. Sorry, I don't trust your word. If you want to claim that Heyward rated the best DL on the two team....show the proof.
You never back anything up with facts.
Hell, not only do I back up my stuff with facts.....I back up what other people have stated.
The most factual thing to come from any of these threads have been posts from other people using PFF ranking. You just spew.
Yea, I spewed the fact that the Browns two rookie RBs were just as productive at running the ball as Bell was.....And I even spewed up facts backing you up that he was a much bigger part of the passing game than our RBs were.
Why am I doing your work for you....when you want to argue black and white facts....even when they are in your favor.
You on the other hand have done nothing except to admit that you are too lazy to back up your points.
I'm as tired of going round and round with you as the rest of the board is reading it. My problem is I have a hard time ignoring flat out ignorance.
You certainly do have a problem ignoring ignorance, primarily your own.
Isn't it funny that I only seem to have to go round and round with you? I don't have that problem with anyone else.
You don't even have a problem with me.....Your problem is with yourself. You chase your tail like a dog in heat.
I have placed on here three threads. One asking for a comparison of the Browns and Steelers linebacking corps. One asking for a comparison of the Browns and Steelers Offensive Line, and one asking for comparison of the Browns and Steelers defensive line. Between myself, and Mudfly and Tour and others we have placed on these board data and information relevent to the purpose of these threads.
Yet, every time one of us presents a fact that shows that the Browns have a talent or statistical advantage in one of these area...your brain explodes into a quagmire of rage, instability and myopia such that you would have thought someone had killed one of your kids. And like I said, you can't even accept data that is in your favor....or accept an acquiescence of facts that are in your favor. I mean, you are like psychotic about it.
Your like the damn wizard from the wizard of oz.
More Merlin.
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Vag and Gip always matching wits!
Doesn't get any better than that on these boards!
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Lol. I'm starting to just skim thru them when Gip gets him worked up. But anyway to the point of these threads : Browns OL and secondary better than Steelers. Front seven close to a wash, and skill players undoubtably better in PIT. And that's just the way it is folks (mic drops)Stuart said:
Vag and Gip always matching wits!
Doesn't get any better than that on these boards!
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Lol. I'm starting to just skim thru them when Gip gets him worked up. But anyway to the point of these threads : Browns OL and secondary better than Steelers. Front seven close to a wash, and skill players undoubtably better in PIT. And that's just the way it is folks (mic drops)Stuart said:
Vag and Gip always matching wits!
Doesn't get any better than that on these boards!
Lol. I'm starting to just skim thru them when Gip gets him worked up. But anyway to the point of these threads : Browns OL and secondary better than Steelers. Front seven close to a wash, and skill players undoubtably better in PIT. And that's just the way it is folks (mic drops)
I'd skim through them too if I were you.
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@douche-nozzle said:
And how does all of this "grading out" work for the Browns? The Browns are still the Browns ad no matter how much whipped cream you put on a turd it's still a turd. You can talk about how nice the paint job is, how highly the suspension system is rated, the reaction times of the driver, how the aerodynamics are the rated highly, how the tires are said to be better than those used by others, but when the car finishes last every single race (AFCN) you are just making a fool of yourself analysing the peices-parts.
This is a Browns discussion board, so we discuss the Browns. Simple really.
Analyzing the different pieces is a way to mark progress and see how we stack up against the competition. Simple again.
So, while you call us foolish for discussing our own team on our own board and comparing them to our main rival......
Id think the real fool is the one who hangs at the others board debating all the foolish things we discuss.....
I may be a fool, but at least I can spell....pIEces....analyZing.....
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@douche-nozzle said:
I don't fault you for discussing the Browns. Just that you discuss the same crap every year in an effort to make yourselves beleive the Browns are something they are not. If you really want to mark progress, discuss how the Browns should build consistancy and depth and avoid trying to draft magic in a bottle. But history will most likely repeat itself when it comes to the Browns and many of their fans and media.
How do you mark progress by discussing the future?......makes no sense......
You can only mark progress by measuring the distance traveled...or distance to go.....
And, during the off season, thats done by grading players and their performance.....and then comparing that performance to the other teams we have to beat.....(which is exactly what we are doing)
If you read, you'll see we are building consistency(note the E at the end there) and, now, are attempting to measure that progress.....see how that works?
Oh, and here's a simple rule I learned in kindergarten.....I before E, except after C.....
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well, probably should cut douche some slack, he could be in pre-K.....
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Not sure what you're trying to get at Douche? We're talking about how Browns players have played, where there are weaknesses, how the units compare against rivals.
Consistency and depth? We've brought in Hartline and Bowe who both provide those things in abundance, rather than relying on Gordon for the 'magic in a bottle' you love talking about.
We've spoken about how the browns OL is top class, but lacks depth, something to be addressed in the draft, which will aid consistency.
We've looked at the LB corps as well, which has some consistency, but lacks depth behind the starters.
Our secondary has both those things in spades.
Our DL has been spoken about at great length, which has depth, but not consistency with all the injuries.
RB/HB/TE is pretty solid now, maybe missing a FB and blow-the-top-off TE but we could go in to the season as it is and be ok.
What exactly would you like to read? The only position of interest I haven't mentioned is QB, which has been done to death on this and every browns board in the world. Under Farmer/Pettine the Browns *have* been trying to build consistency and depth, and the signings that have been made have reflected that, not spending big bucks on flashy players but adding dependable players at key positions.
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Stuart said:
Vag and Gip always matching wits!
Doesn't get any better than that on these boards!
Wits has nothing to do with it. (you and I both know he can't match wits with me).
And it wasn't even me that he was attempting to "match wits with"....it was thenew23.
It was pure straight football statistics that were being matched. thenew said the Browns run game was as productive as the Steelers. Vag had a coronary over that and disputed it.
Yet I showed the stats that proved that thenew was right. When I compiled those stats....I fully expected that they would prove the Vag right.....but they didn't. But even when the stats were shown and supported thenew.....Vag tried to do another tap dance and say "homina homina homina....well....uh...duh....I am just talking about Bell.....that he is better than anyone of your runners". Except, of course, that was not thenew's contention.
Funny that he didn't argue with me when I showed how much better the Steeler's passing game was. I mean, he goes into epileptic siezure over one set of black and white stats...but not over another. Why was that?
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@douche-nozzle said:
And how does all of this "grading out" work for the Browns? The Browns are still the Browns ad no matter how much whipped cream you put on a turd it's still a turd. You can talk about how nice the paint job is, how highly the suspension system is rated, the reaction times of the driver, how the aerodynamics are the rated highly, how the tires are said to be better than those used by others, but when the car finishes last every single race (AFCN) you are just making a fool of yourself analysing the peices-parts.
It says that we need a better quarterback.....and more organizational stability.
again....what is it about all that you don't comprehend?
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@douche-nozzle said:
Distance traveled? Then the Browns are exactly where they were when they joined the league in 1999. Except they have built an even more reliable habit of losing big down the stretch. I'm not trying to antagonize you, just pointing out what the rest of the world knows. The Browns fail every year and they fail in virtually the same way. Browns fans and media demand the same thing every year (instant success) and every year it backfires on them. Wash, rinse, repeat.
First, the Browns joined the league in 1950.....and won the championship....so, no, they are not where they are when they joined the league.
Second, you are right....they have this habit of losing down the stretch.
If you have an answer as to why that is....and I don't mean your stupid demeaning shit, but a real answer, we are all ears.
And, yes, Browns fans demand instant success every year. What else would you have us do.....be patient? (and where do you get the idea that we are not patient.)
Hell, Browns fans have more enthusiasm for their losing team than yinzers have for a successful team.
I mean, we are not the ones the Commissioner had to question over our no show rate:
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