Which Qb Goes Where?
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Found link to a partial distribution chart for Lynch 2015 in this BleacherReport article:
Odd thing is in the games I've broken down so far, I thought he threw a really good deep ball. He did not throw many deep except for one game (Ole Miss, I think), but I would have thought his deep percentage to be much higher.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Goff makes full field reads and runs pro routes with 4-5 receivers - he just hasn't run under center.
Wentz as I can see has the injury questions, footwork issues, issues out of the pocket, issues on touch on the intermediate throws, accuracy issues down field.
I make it sound worse than it is - there's a lot of good about him, but Goff is better in all those areas IMO.
Goff makes full field reads, sure, yet a staggering number of Cal's Bear Raid offensive concepts are catch and fire, three step drop (were he under center) concepts. Granted, the NFL is slowly transitioning toward more of that philosophy, however there are still key duties he hasn't been asked to perform - and that's what keeps him from being a lock #1 overall pick and instead just a possible #1 overall.
Goff is also inherently behind the ball when it comes to footwork because of his lack of playing under center. His footwork may be impeccable as it stands now, but that's like saying he scored a 100% on the front side of the test - there's still another side...whereas Wentz has scored a 90% on both sides.
FWIW, Goff has similar accuracy issues and he starts many games slow.
There's always two sides of the coin - Goff isn't some completely polished, pro-ready prospect nor is Wentz some unheralded small school, perfect prototype. It's just a matter of upside, in my opinion. I believe Wentz has more upside due to his physical tools, yet has a lower floor due to his lack of competition.
Goff makes full field reads, sure, yet a staggering number of Cal's Bear Raid offensive concepts are catch and fire, three step drop (were he under center) concepts. Granted, the NFL is slowly transitioning toward more of that philosophy, however there are still key duties he hasn't been asked to perform - and that's what keeps him from being a lock #1 overall pick and instead just a possible #1 overall.
Goff is also inherently behind the ball when it comes to footwork because of his lack of playing under center. His footwork may be impeccable as it stands now, but that's like saying he scored a 100% on the front side of the test - there's still another side...whereas Wentz has scored a 90% on both sides.
FWIW, Goff has similar accuracy issues and he starts many games slow.
There's always two sides of the coin - Goff isn't some completely polished, pro-ready prospect nor is Wentz some unheralded small school, perfect prototype. It's just a matter of upside, in my opinion. I believe Wentz has more upside due to his physical tools, yet has a lower floor due to his lack of competition.
This is spot on. Even with that said, I still think I like Goff's tools and upside better at pick No. 2. Just kidding, I don't know yet.
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Found link to a partial distribution chart for Lynch 2015 in this BleacherReport article:
Odd thing is in the games I've broken down so far, I thought he threw a really good deep ball. He did not throw many deep except for one game (Ole Miss, I think), but I would have thought his deep percentage to be much higher.
Found link to a partial distribution chart for Lynch 2015 in this BleacherReport article:
Tour I think someone said it before- but looking at that chart- Lynch is captain dump off short. Lots of screens & swing passes?
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Either, Goff, Lynch, or Wentz would be an upgrade. The shortest one is 6'4", Wentz might be the best pro QB.
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Goff makes full field reads, sure, yet a staggering number of Cal's Bear Raid offensive concepts are catch and fire, three step drop (were he under center) concepts. Granted, the NFL is slowly transitioning toward more of that philosophy, however there are still key duties he hasn't been asked to perform - and that's what keeps him from being a lock #1 overall pick and instead just a possible #1 overall.
Goff is also inherently behind the ball when it comes to footwork because of his lack of playing under center. His footwork may be impeccable as it stands now, but that's like saying he scored a 100% on the front side of the test - there's still another side...whereas Wentz has scored a 90% on both sides.
FWIW, Goff has similar accuracy issues and he starts many games slow.
There's always two sides of the coin - Goff isn't some completely polished, pro-ready prospect nor is Wentz some unheralded small school, perfect prototype. It's just a matter of upside, in my opinion. I believe Wentz has more upside due to his physical tools, yet has a lower floor due to his lack of competition.
This is spot on. Even with that said, I still think I like Goff's tools and upside better at pick No. 2. Just kidding, I don't know yet.
This is spot on. Even with that said, I still think I like Goff's tools and upside better at pick No. 2. Just kidding, I don't know yet.
I like him better at #2 as well. I'd be ecstatic if we could drop four or so spots and take Wentz at #6. Maybe even #8. However, I'm a little scared he won't make it past Dallas, unless Dallas goes in for RG3 or Manziel.
Hm...I have an idea brewing.
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This is contingent on the premise that Goff goes #1 by way of a trade.
CLE trades #2 + 2016 fourth round pick + Johnny Manziel
To
DAL for #4 + #34 + 2017 second round pick + 2017 fourth round pick
Take away Manziel and calculate point totals, it's still asking for even compensation. Manziel just sweetens the pot for Dallas.
Now Dallas can get what will likely be the top rated DE (not in my eyes) + the QB that Jerry Jones wants.
Cleveland can get Wentz at #4, then BPA ILB/DE/OLB at picks #32 and #34, plus still have two extra picks they accrued.
(The picks probably need working, but the premise is there. We have one, possibly two, things that Dallas wants. Dallas has some picks we could certainly use.)
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Found link to a partial distribution chart for Lynch 2015 in this BleacherReport article:
Tour I think someone said it before- but looking at that chart- Lynch is captain dump off short. Lots of screens & swing passes?
Tour I think someone said it before- but looking at that chart- Lynch is captain dump off short. Lots of screens & swing passes?
So was Carr.
Not that that means anything, just making an observation.
Sorry for the triple post, I'm on my phone in the gym. Feel free to condense if you want, mods.
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I think it's interesting that Todd McShay has Lynch rated higher than Goff. I tend to like McShay better than the other pundits, but I'm not sure I agree with him here. Obviously he's the expert and I haven't "broken down film" or anything, but I don't necessarily see it. Perhaps I could see Lynch as possibly having the higher ceiling, but I see him taking much longer to develop than Goff. Lynch has the goods, don't get me wrong, but his size and speed won't be all that impressive in the NFL. Everybody is fast, and everybody is big. Maybe not 6'7, LOL...but still.
I like what I hear about Goff being a "film room junkie", and a coach's dream (heard this from a few radio shows, can't verify with link).
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I think it's interesting that Todd McShay has Lynch rated higher than Goff. I tend to like McShay better than the other pundits, but I'm not sure I agree with him here. Obviously he's the expert and I haven't "broken down film" or anything, but I don't necessarily see it. Perhaps I could see Lynch as possibly having the higher ceiling, but I see him taking much longer to develop than Goff. Lynch has the goods, don't get me wrong, but his size and speed won't be all that impressive in the NFL. Everybody is fast, and everybody is big. Maybe not 6'7, LOL...but still.
I like what I hear about Goff being a "film room junkie", and a coach's dream (heard this from a few radio shows, can't verify with link).
I think it's interesting that Todd McShay has Lynch rated higher than Goff. I tend to like McShay better than the other pundits, but I'm not sure I agree with him here. Obviously he's the expert and I haven't "broken down film" or anything, but I don't necessarily see it. Perhaps I could see Lynch as possibly having the higher ceiling, but I see him taking much longer to develop than Goff. Lynch has the goods, don't get me wrong, but his size and speed won't be all that impressive in the NFL. Everybody is fast, and everybody is big. Maybe not 6'7, LOL...but still.
I like what I hear about Goff being a "film room junkie", and a coach's dream (heard this from a few radio shows, can't verify with link).
It's still early really. the final rankings will likely change. They see Lynch was a rawer candidate with some mechanical issues, but huge size, elusiveness, etc.
I think when the senior bowl, combine, and pro days are all said and done by March/April we'll end up with #1 Goff, #2/#3 Wentz/Lynch.
I think Goff's combine/pro day gives him the chance to solidify his spot as the consensus #1, while Wentz stands to benefit the most from all the scouting events - could be the difference between him going top 15 and going 2nd round or later. Only because Wentz is more of an unknown at this point.
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Completely agree. It's WAY early, and things always change so much. I see Wentz as a potential candidate to absolutely skyrocket. Some team will fall in love with him.
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Let me ask a different question about Wentz- what's the word on his wrist injury? I'm reading around of course but I'm curious if anyone has done more digging on it.
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Let me ask a different question about Wentz- what's the word on his wrist injury? I'm reading around of course but I'm curious if anyone has done more digging on it.
Let me ask a different question about Wentz- what's the word on his wrist injury? I'm reading around of course but I'm curious if anyone has done more digging on it.
Fractured his throwing wrist, had surgery in October. Missed the rest of the season until a couple weeks ago played the FCS championship game against Jacksonville State.
Played like trash against Jacksonville State. 1 TD, 2 interceptions, 55% completion. Though he did have a couple of rushing touchdowns... (One interception was an incredible play by the DB, but shows his deep accuracy needs some consistency)
Personally I don't understand the hype from what I've seen so far, but we'll see. I see him staring down guys, I don't really see him throwing guys open (or throwing with anticipation)
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Let me ask a different question about Wentz- what's the word on his wrist injury? I'm reading around of course but I'm curious if anyone has done more digging on it.
Fractured his throwing wrist, had surgery in October. Missed the rest of the season until a couple weeks ago played the FCS championship game against Jacksonville State.
Played like trash against Jacksonville State. 1 TD, 2 interceptions, 55% completion. Though he did have a couple of rushing touchdowns... (One interception was an incredible play by the DB, but shows his deep accuracy needs some consistency)
Personally I don't understand the hype from what I've seen so far, but we'll see. I see him staring down guys, I don't really see him throwing guys open (or throwing with anticipation)
Fractured his throwing wrist, had surgery in October. Missed the rest of the season until a couple weeks ago played the FCS championship game against Jacksonville State.
Played like trash against Jacksonville State. 1 TD, 2 interceptions, 55% completion. Though he did have a couple of rushing touchdowns... (One interception was an incredible play by the DB, but shows his deep accuracy needs some consistency)
Personally I don't understand the hype from what I've seen so far, but we'll see. I see him staring down guys, I don't really see him throwing guys open (or throwing with anticipation)
I'm going to chalk this up to prospect blindness, because I'd hate to think you really think those things about Wentz. You seem like you know what you're talking about with Goff, and Wentz doesn't display those qualities in the least.
It happened to me two years ago with Bortles - I liked everything about him and failed to see anything good in any other prospects. I believed Bortles to be head and shoulders above the rest, which didn't allow me to correctly evaluate the rest of the crop.
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Fractured his throwing wrist, had surgery in October. Missed the rest of the season until a couple weeks ago played the FCS championship game against Jacksonville State.
Played like trash against Jacksonville State. 1 TD, 2 interceptions, 55% completion. Though he did have a couple of rushing touchdowns... (One interception was an incredible play by the DB, but shows his deep accuracy needs some consistency)
Personally I don't understand the hype from what I've seen so far, but we'll see. I see him staring down guys, I don't really see him throwing guys open (or throwing with anticipation)
I'm going to chalk this up to prospect blindness, because I'd hate to think you really think those things about Wentz. You seem like you know what you're talking about with Goff, and Wentz doesn't display those qualities in the least.
It happened to me two years ago with Bortles - I liked everything about him and failed to see anything good in any other prospects. I believed Bortles to be head and shoulders above the rest, which didn't allow me to correctly evaluate the rest of the crop.
I'm going to chalk this up to prospect blindness, because I'd hate to think you really think those things about Wentz. You seem like you know what you're talking about with Goff, and Wentz doesn't display those qualities in the least.
It happened to me two years ago with Bortles - I liked everything about him and failed to see anything good in any other prospects. I believed Bortles to be head and shoulders above the rest, which didn't allow me to correctly evaluate the rest of the crop.
I've seen more Goff than Wentz, but I didn't really say much about him I think is wrong.
I like his size, frame, arm strength, composure, accuracy in general is good - sometimes inconsistent. The 2 picks against Jacksonville state were caused by being slightly behind and one was more of a great play by the DB. He had a deep ball that was thrown behind and inside - his receivers had to turn, stop, adjust a lot of the time rather than catching in stride. Though this was the first game in 2 months post-injury, I've seen pretty much the entire jacksonville state game and only portions of the other games.
I've seen a poor feel for timing routes. He's pretty good under pressure which seems to be pretty often, though - he knows when to tuck it down and run and does it pretty well.
He's thrown it to a lot of super tight windows, but other times he's behind, underthrown, overthrown.
I guess trash against jacksonville state isn't very fair to say. He played fine, but it wasn't an incredibly impressive day through the air for him though. Certainly not the best of his (short) season.
The upside is there, he has a big frame and the physical attributes you want. He has the arm, accuracy in general, release, seems to have good vision although he still locks onto guys, lapses on footwork sometimes, etc.
I'll be interested in seeing him in the senior bowl, but at this point I don't see him worth a top 5 pick. He may land at 15-22...Probably 2nd round if he does poor at the pre-draft events.
As far as Bortles, I guess he's pretty similar to Bortles. I liked Bortles but I didn't like him at #4 overall at the time, of course he ended up #3 overall.
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See that is funny.....no where does he say that he will reach for a QB that isn't talented enough. He has given a dozen interviews, and the one I heard on WKNR.....he said essentially "yes, if a QB is good enough to take at #2 we will take him....but if not we won't.
Here is the exact quote:
If there’s a QB at pick No. 2 or pick No. 32 that we feel is the best option, the best fit for our team, we need to go get him,” Jackson said Sunday. “I’m sitting here today because John Harbaugh gave me an opportunity to draft and develop Joe Flacco.”
California’s Jared Goff, Memphis’ Paxton Lynch, Michigan State’s Connor Cook and North Dakota State’s Carson Wentz are among the top quarterback options. Jackson said he’ll spend a lot of time evaluating the quarterback class but won’t force the issue at the top of the draft if the player isn’t worthy.
“If he’s good enough, I am not against it,” Jackson said on WKNR 850-AM. “But if he’s not, then obviously we don’t want to take one just to take one
Right, and you're basing your evaluation of "not talented enough" on fictional things that Bill Polian may or may not have said, while trying to back it up with nothing.
Fact is that you were wrong about your "evaluation" of these guys, that they aren't considered second round talent, and that we will more than likely be taking one in the draft. These are first round QB's who have higher grades than any of the last two draft class QB's.
This is yet another instance of Gipper shoving his foot in his mouth, then trying to argue his way out of it with nothing.
Right, and you're basing your evaluation of "not talented enough" on fictional things that Bill Polian may or may not have said, while trying to back it up with nothing.
Fact is that you were wrong about your "evaluation" of these guys, that they aren't considered second round talent, and that we will more than likely be taking one in the draft. These are first round QB's who have higher grades than any of the last two draft class QB's.
This is yet another instance of Gipper shoving his foot in his mouth, then trying to argue his way out of it with nothing.
I am not wrong about what people have said about these guys. What has happened is that due to the position, these guys are all being reevaluated upward. But just because they have been reevaluated does not mean that their talent has increased over what people thought they were early on in this process.
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Found link to a partial distribution chart for Lynch 2015 in this BleacherReport article:
Tour I think someone said it before- but looking at that chart- Lynch is captain dump off short. Lots of screens & swing passes?
Tour I think someone said it before- but looking at that chart- Lynch is captain dump off short. Lots of screens & swing passes?
Lots of screens... both traditional and bubble. All part of the horizontal offense. But he throws them well... generally taking something off of his short throws making them very catchable.
The screens are followed by lots of quick slants. Enough that I started wondering when a team would take away the slants with a backside LB and sure enough, in the next game, a UH LB picked him doing just that.
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Right, and you're basing your evaluation of "not talented enough" on fictional things that Bill Polian may or may not have said, while trying to back it up with nothing.
Fact is that you were wrong about your "evaluation" of these guys, that they aren't considered second round talent, and that we will more than likely be taking one in the draft. These are first round QB's who have higher grades than any of the last two draft class QB's.
This is yet another instance of Gipper shoving his foot in his mouth, then trying to argue his way out of it with nothing.
I am not wrong about what people have said about these guys. What has happened is that due to the position, these guys are all being reevaluated upward. But just because they have been reevaluated does not mean that their talent has increased over what people thought they were early on in this process.
I am not wrong about what people have said about these guys. What has happened is that due to the position, these guys are all being reevaluated upward. But just because they have been reevaluated does not mean that their talent has increased over what people thought they were early on in this process.
The thing is, you still haven't provided proof of these supposed things people have said - so that makes them untrue until otherwise proven.
I heard Bill Belichick say that Carson Wentz and Jared Goff will be better than Tom Brady and John Elway.
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I am not wrong about what people have said about these guys. What has happened is that due to the position, these guys are all being reevaluated upward. But just because they have been reevaluated does not mean that their talent has increased over what people thought they were early on in this process.
The thing is, you still haven't provided proof of these supposed things people have said - so that makes them untrue until otherwise proven.
I heard Bill Belichick say that Carson Wentz and Jared Goff will be better than Tom Brady and John Elway.
The thing is, you still haven't provided proof of these supposed things people have said - so that makes them untrue until otherwise proven.
I heard Bill Belichick say that Carson Wentz and Jared Goff will be better than Tom Brady and John Elway.
You don't know what is proof and what isn't. Testimonial evidence IS proof. Take it from a Magistrate.
And I gave testimony as to what these people said. And considering the credibility of the witness....you can take it to the bank.
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The thing is, you still haven't provided proof of these supposed things people have said - so that makes them untrue until otherwise proven.
I heard Bill Belichick say that Carson Wentz and Jared Goff will be better than Tom Brady and John Elway.
You don't know what is proof and what isn't. Testimonial evidence IS proof. Take it from a Magistrate.
And I gave testimony as to what these people said. And considering the credibility of the witness....you can take it to the bank.
You don't know what is proof and what isn't. Testimonial evidence IS proof. Take it from a Magistrate.
And I gave testimony as to what these people said. And considering the credibility of the witness....you can take it to the bank.
Okay, so you're wrong. Got it.
Moving on to actual talk again.
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