Why we need a QB in Top 5
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You could say many teams that without their top 3 or four stars that they are "pedestrian" or as good as the browns...which of course would also be ridiculous.
Browns without their best 3-4 players...oh dear
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You could say many teams that without their top 3 or four stars that they are "pedestrian" or as good as the browns...which of course would also be ridiculous.
Browns without their best 3-4 players...oh dear
Browns without their best 3-4 players...oh dear
So who were our best players in 2016? I'd say:
1. Thomas
2. Jamie Collins for his half season. Guy is a beast
3. Crow. 4.9 yards per carry, not his fault they didn't give him the rock more..
4. Christian Kirksey ... he's turned into a heck of a player ... Farmer nailed one!
Honorable mention: I know it is cool to hate him, but I thought Joe Haden played well when healthy, Jamar Taylor turned into a nice free agent find. Danny Shelton is becoming the player we hoped for. Pryor makes a lot of mistakes, but makes up for it with his gifts, and the desire is there too, and the production can't be denied. The long snapper was tits.
There is 9 football players. The other 44 gotta get better or get replaced. Some look real promising, like Ogbah, but we need to get beyond promising and to production next year. Other good players, like Bitonio need to stay healthy to make this list.
Zombo
--Don't think I would have had a QB in my Top 30
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Yup, I do too Gip. We don't need the GOAT at qb, but having someone on Rodger's level would be refreshing for a change. If he needs time to sit and learn, we give him that time. You don't start your #1 overall pick until you think he's ready.
If you can assure me that he's the next Aaron Rodgers then I'm all in. Draft him #1 overall and give him 10% ownership in the team as well. From what I've seen and what we also have as a history of guys with 1 year starting in college and how that transfers to a lack of NFL success, there are a lot of red flags about this kid. Besides all that, unless I've missed something, he hasn't even said he's coming out yet.
If you can assure me that he's the next Aaron Rodgers then I'm all in. Draft him #1 overall and give him 10% ownership in the team as well. From what I've seen and what we also have as a history of guys with 1 year starting in college and how that transfers to a lack of NFL success, there are a lot of red flags about this kid. Besides all that, unless I've missed something, he hasn't even said he's coming out yet.
Well, of course, if he decides not to come out, then all bets are off.
While Stan may be absolutely right....that the kid could benefit from another year in school.....that doesn't always work out.
And if you are slated to be a Top 5 pick....and MT is that....you jump.
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Breaking it down further:
2016: QBs taken #1 and #2...Goff/Wentz
2015: QBs taken #1 and #2...Winston/Mariota
2014: QB taken #3...Bortles
2013: none taken top 5
2012: QBs taken #1 and #2 Luck/Griffin
2011: QB taken #1 Newton
2010: QB taken #1 Bradford
2009: QB taken #1 and #5 Stafford/Sanchez
2008: QB taken #3 Matt Ryan
2007: QB taken #1: Russell
I think the "hit vs. bust" rate on QBs taken Top 5 over these last 10 years seems quite a bit over 50%. Russell and Sanchez may be only certified busts (though Sanchez did take his team to two AFC title games...for what that's worth)
I wouldn't even count the most recent drafts for hits and missed, too early to tell. Looking through it 2007 - 2014 I have it 4-1-4 with Bortles being the tie.
I wouldn't even count the most recent drafts for hits and missed, too early to tell. Looking through it 2007 - 2014 I have it 4-1-4 with Bortles being the tie.
Break that down a bit more if you would. And I do think that it seems safe to conclude that both Winston and Mariota appear on their way to being very good NFL QBs. But sure, there is time for them to fall flat. After RGs and Sanchez's first years you would have said they on their way to being very good. And, Yes, way to early on Goff/Wentz.
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@ghoolie said:
I don't think I accurately made my point, Gip,
I am not saying we ignore the QB position, I am saying we HAVE ignored it. We have ignored it by not going after the very top prospects, save Couch, and we have ignored it by not putting the QBs we have taken into a more QB friendly situation.
Yes, very fair point.
You simply cannot start out with #2 and #32, and come away with Coleman.
We got Ogbah at 32. Jury still out on both obviously.
As I pointed out, had the FO really positioned themselves to hold on to Gordon and Pryor, then the addition of Coleman was okay because THAT 3 WR tandem would indeed be a QB friendly move. Likewise, how the hell can a QB succeed when players continue to drop passes, fumble pick 6s at the goal line, make stupid penalties and miss tackles?????
This past Sunday it almost seemed like the Browns were jinxed that way.
I have always maintained the the QB is the main focus of a team. Without a great QB there is no winning. My point is that the QB is not currently the priority with the Browns. Understand my point, simply using the #1 pick on a top QB in itself is not an example of being committed to filling this hole. What if the next QB doesn't work out..................what is left for the next try to step in to? That's what the Browns lack.
I still think you go for it. What happens if it doesn't work out.....try try again.
I am sorry but how the fuck can anyone look at this team and with any credibility say that hue created a better machine for the next guy to step into.
Go ahead, pick a great QB....then put him into this shit. Our 2016 draft was a bust. Any time the NFL displays great rookie performances way better than your rookie pick, your draft is a failure. You cannot close the distance on your competitors when their 1st round picks make yours look like shit.
Well, what are we/the Browns supposed to do? Give up.....trade every first round pick they have for a pack of 3rd rounders. That won't work.
They just gotta keep pluggin' away. What else can they do?
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Wel, this isn't basketball. MT isn't a generational player. So other than that, fine analogy....
Mitchy has one year starting experience. One...1...
I don't know how else to classify this other than blind homerism...Kids got tools, sure. Has he learned to use them enough to pass on a blue chip talent elsewhere. No imo
You classify it as a person having an instinct about talent. That is what is evident.
And what blue chip talent is out there? I don't see any talent that is any more blue chip than he is.
You classify it as a person having an instinct about talent. That is what is evident.
lol... thanks for that. Needed a laugh...
@ghoolie said:
I don't think I accurately made my point, Gip,
I am not saying we ignore the QB position, I am saying we HAVE ignored it. We have ignored it by not going after the very top prospects, save Couch, and we have ignored it by not putting the QBs we have taken into a more QB friendly situation.
You simply cannot start out with #2 and #32, and come away with Coleman.
Without a great QB there is no winning. My point is that the QB is not currently the priority with the Browns. Understand my point, simply using the #1 pick on a top QB in itself is not an example of being committed to filling this hole. What if the next QB doesn't work out..................what is left for the next try to step in to? That's what the Browns lack.I am sorry but how the fuck can anyone look at this team and with any credibility say that hue created a better machine for the next guy to step into.
For a clarification that was very confusing. Great teams do win without "great QBs", so why dilute your valid points with such a demonstrably wrong, absolute statement? Great teams don't win with "bad QBs"... and bad teams don't win even with good ones.
I've decried past drafts bypassing great talent, seemingly out of sheer ignorance, nearly as much as you have, yet I did not decry this last draft because I got what they were doing... or at least I think I did/do. This draft will be telling... this off-season will be telling.
And Hue has prepared the ground for building. How many other HCs have we had that could hold a team together thru 1 and 15? Give the man some credit for that. Not a lot? Fine... but some.
I'm 3-2-4 with bortles not a tie. Perspective is funny.
2-3-4 here... with Ryan and Luck as my "2", and only because "Matty Ice" finally won me over this year.
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Breaking it down further:
2016: QBs taken #1 and #2...Goff/Wentz
2015: QBs taken #1 and #2...Winston/Mariota
2014: QB taken #3...Bortles
2013: none taken top 5
2012: QBs taken #1 and #2 Luck/Griffin
2011: QB taken #1 Newton
2010: QB taken #1 Bradford
2009: QB taken #1 and #5 Stafford/Sanchez
2008: QB taken #3 Matt Ryan
2007: QB taken #1: Russell
I think the "hit vs. bust" rate on QBs taken Top 5 over these last 10 years seems quite a bit over 50%. Russell and Sanchez may be only certified busts (though Sanchez did take his team to two AFC title games...for what that's worth)
I wouldn't even count the most recent drafts for hits and missed, too early to tell. Looking through it 2007 - 2014 I have it 4-1-4 with Bortles being the tie.
I wouldn't even count the most recent drafts for hits and missed, too early to tell. Looking through it 2007 - 2014 I have it 4-1-4 with Bortles being the tie.
Honestly, I think the thing to take away from your list is that of the QB's taken with the first overall pick only one was a hardcore bust in Russell. Bradford is "meh" (but far from a bust), but I'd sure as shit take Stafford, Luck, Ryan, Newton. Winston is quickly turning into franchise material and Goff is a we'll see.
Looking at it that way that looks pretty good in our favor if we like a certain guy with the number one pick, but of course that means a whole lot of nothing.
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Absolutely, ghoolie. We need to invest in O-linemen and make sure that the QB is protected and we can have a solid run game.
Absolutely, ghoolie. We need to invest in O-linemen and make sure that the QB is protected and we can have a solid run game.
I'm sure you were trolling, but... OL is not only not high on my list of our needs, it's near the bottom.
LT is clearly set.
LG is set if Bito can get and stay healthy.
C is looking up with Reiter and Fabs competing, and only gets better if and when a healthy Greco returns.
RG has Paz and Drango competing, again with Greco lurking.
RT has Shon, Paz and even, yes, Cam in the mix.
That's four interior and four OT in the mix with one swing man... OK, three OTs... and Cam.
Only one left out was Bailey, who did some good work at RG, but stands to be the odd man out.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
2-3-4 here... with Ryan and Luck as my "2", and only because "Matty Ice" finally won me over this year.
So, you don't think Newton and Stafford are bona fide?
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I wouldn't even count the most recent drafts for hits and missed, too early to tell. Looking through it 2007 - 2014 I have it 4-1-4 with Bortles being the tie.
Honestly, I think the thing to take away from your list is that of the QB's taken with the first overall pick only one was a hardcore bust in Russell. Bradford is "meh" (but far from a bust), but I'd sure as shit take Stafford, Luck, Ryan, Newton. Winston is quickly turning into franchise material and Goff is a we'll see.
Looking at it that way that looks pretty good in our favor if we like a certain guy with the number one pick, but of course that means a whole lot of nothing.
Honestly, I think the thing to take away from your list is that of the QB's taken with the first overall pick only one was a hardcore bust in Russell. Bradford is "meh" (but far from a bust), but I'd sure as shit take Stafford, Luck, Ryan, Newton. Winston is quickly turning into franchise material and Goff is a we'll see.
Sanchez is not a bust?
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
2-3-4 here... with Ryan and Luck as my "2", and only because "Matty Ice" finally won me over this year.
So, you don't think Newton and Stafford are bona fide?
2-3-4 here... with Ryan and Luck as my "2", and only because "Matty Ice" finally won me over this year.
So, you don't think Newton and Stafford are bona fide?
Obviously...
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Absolutely, ghoolie. We need to invest in O-linemen and make sure that the QB is protected and we can have a solid run game.
I'm sure you were trolling, but... OL is not only not high on my list of our needs, it's near the bottom.
LT is clearly set.
LG is set if Bito can get and stay healthy.
C is looking up with Reiter and Fabs competing, and only gets better if and when a healthy Greco returns.
RG has Paz and Drango competing, again with Greco lurking.
RT has Shon, Paz and even, yes, Cam in the mix.
That's four interior and four OT in the mix with one swing man... OK, three OTs... and Cam.
Only one left out was Bailey, who did some good work at RG, but stands to be the odd man out.
I'm sure you were trolling, but... OL is not only not high on my list of our needs, it's near the bottom.
LT is clearly set.
LG is set if Bito can get and stay healthy.
C is looking up with Reiter and Fabs competing, and only gets better if and when a healthy Greco returns.
RG has Paz and Drango competing, again with Greco lurking.
RT has Shon, Paz and even, yes, Cam in the mix.
That's four interior and four OT in the mix with one swing man... OK, three OTs... and Cam.
Only one left out was Bailey, who did some good work at RG, but stands to be the odd man out.
I still want a RT or OC taken high. Elflein, Ramczyk perhaps at top/mid 2d round.
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Honestly, I think the thing to take away from your list is that of the QB's taken with the first overall pick only one was a hardcore bust in Russell. Bradford is "meh" (but far from a bust), but I'd sure as shit take Stafford, Luck, Ryan, Newton. Winston is quickly turning into franchise material and Goff is a we'll see.
Sanchez is not a bust?
Sanchez is not a bust?
I'm talking literally taken with the first overall pick in the draft like the guys I've noted. The Sanchize was drafted 5th that year, but did actually go to two AFC championship games..
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2-3-4 here... with Ryan and Luck as my "2", and only because "Matty Ice" finally won me over this year.
So, you don't think Newton and Stafford are bona fide?
Obviously...
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I'm talking literally taken with the first overall pick in the draft like the guys I've noted. The Sanchize was drafted 5th that year, but did actually go to two AFC championship games..
My post upon which this discussion revolves listed those taken in the Top 5. Here they are:
2016: QBs taken #1 and #2...Goff/Wentz
2015: QBs taken #1 and #2...Winston/Mariota
2014: QB taken #3...Bortles
2013: none taken top 5
2012: QBs taken #1 and #2 Luck/Griffin
2011: QB taken #1 Newton
2010: QB taken #1 Bradford
2009: QB taken #1 and #5 Stafford/Sanchez
2008: QB taken #3 Matt Ryan
2007: QB taken #1: Russell
So, give the hits and misses from this bunch.
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If we go back another 10 years and look at the QBs taken in the Top 5 you have this list:
2006 Vince Young #3
2005 Alex Smith #1
2004 Eli Manning #1, Phillip Rivers #4
2003 Carson Palmer #1
2002 David Carr #1, Joey Harrington #3
2001 Michael Vick #1
2000 none
1999 Tim Couch #1, Donovan McNabb #2, Akili Smith #3
1998 Peyton Manning #1, Ryan Leaf #2
Here, it is definitely hit or miss. Major quality QBs, major busts.
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My post upon which this discussion revolves listed those taken in the Top 5. Here they are:2016: QBs taken #1 and #2...Goff/Wentz Too Early2015: QBs taken #1 and #2...Winston/Mariota Hitting ... Hitting2014: QB taken #3...Bortles Missing2013: none taken top 52012: QBs taken #1 and #2 Luck/Griffin Hit/Miss2011: QB taken #1 Newton Hit2010: QB taken #1 Bradford Missing2009: QB taken #1 and #5 Stafford/Sanchez Hit/Miss2008: QB taken #3 Matt Ryan Hit2007: QB taken #1: Russell Miss
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My post upon which this discussion revolves listed those taken in the Top 5. Here they are:2016: QBs taken #1 and #2...Goff/Wentz Too Early2015: QBs taken #1 and #2...Winston/Mariota Hitting ... Hitting2014: QB taken #3...Bortles Missing2013: none taken top 52012: QBs taken #1 and #2 Luck/Griffin Hit/Miss2011: QB taken #1 Newton Hit2010: QB taken #1 Bradford Missing2009: QB taken #1 and #5 Stafford/Sanchez Hit/Miss2008: QB taken #3 Matt Ryan Hit2007: QB taken #1: Russell Miss
Zombo said:
My post upon which this discussion revolves listed those taken in the Top 5. Here they are:2016: QBs taken #1 and #2...Goff/Wentz Too Early2015: QBs taken #1 and #2...Winston/Mariota Hitting ... Hitting2014: QB taken #3...Bortles Missing2013: none taken top 52012: QBs taken #1 and #2 Luck/Griffin Hit/Miss2011: QB taken #1 Newton Hit2010: QB taken #1 Bradford Missing2009: QB taken #1 and #5 Stafford/Sanchez Hit/Miss2008: QB taken #3 Matt Ryan Hit2007: QB taken #1: Russell MissI'd go with that ranking as well. Except I'd say Bortles and Bradford are misses.
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Zombo said:
My post upon which this discussion revolves listed those taken in the Top 5. Here they are:2016: QBs taken #1 and #2...Goff/Wentz Too Early2015: QBs taken #1 and #2...Winston/Mariota Hitting ... Hitting2014: QB taken #3...Bortles Missing2013: none taken top 52012: QBs taken #1 and #2 Luck/Griffin Hit/Miss2011: QB taken #1 Newton Hit2010: QB taken #1 Bradford Missing2009: QB taken #1 and #5 Stafford/Sanchez Hit/Miss2008: QB taken #3 Matt Ryan Hit2007: QB taken #1: Russell MissI'd go with that ranking as well. Except I'd say Bortles and Bradford are misses.
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Zombo said:
Ya, Bradford is no #1 overall in worth, but he can start a season for ya.
Bortles looks like just a guy as well.
Zombo
Look what the Vikings gave up for him thinking they had a "super bowl team" and what did that get them? The same thing as the Browns, sitting at home watching the playoffs, except the draft picks they gave up for him.
Bortles isn't even just a guy...he just plain sucks.
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