@the-gipper said:

I double checked, because I knew I could not trust your stats.

Thomas ran a 4.45 40, Gipson ran a 4.6. Thomas did bench press 28 reps, which is very high for a DB....but Gipson pressed 23 reps, which is also high.

Thomas had a little better vertical leap.

And, FYI, you are full of shit if you don't think Thomas is to be expected to be the eventual starter. Point of fact is NFL.com has him as a strong safety, not a FS. So those two don't even play the same position. Thus....he was taken by the Steelers specifically to be the replacement for Polamalu. He is expected in the future to be a key component of the Steelers defense.

Gipson wasn't expected to be anything but training camp fodder. He got his position with no expectations whatsoever.

Now, if he turns out not to be FS starting material, so be it. Someone better will have to come along and beat him out...and it would merely be what was expected all along. So he is already far "ahead of the game".

Thomas, on the other hand, sits in the same position as McFadden....he is required by virtue of the investment made in him to be good.

Uh, I'm talking about Shamarko Thomas, Pittsburgh's Lombardi draft choice, not Philip Thomas. Shamarko Thomas ran a 4.37 and 4.42 40 at the combine and did 28 reps. Don't know where you got a 4.6 for Gipson, but his Pro Day time was 4.61, slow, but that's about what Kenny Vaccaro ran at the Combine. Also, Thomas did a vertical leap of of over 40 vs. 35 for Gipson. Thomas can really jump.

Re Gipson and cannon fodder, actually, he was a pretty good player in college, he just didn't stand out extraordinarily. When one looks at all the elements surroudning Gipson, I just don't expect him to be an outstanding free ssafety, and I think the Browns need one to capitalize and take advante of hte increased presure on the QB.

Speaking of pressure on the QB, did you know that the Browns last year had the same number of sacks as Horton's ballyhooed pressure defense in Arizona?

And speaking of idiocy, I see your immature friends keep changing my board name. I'm sure it's lots of laughs for their 5 year old minds. In places like Egypt, China, Iran and Syria tyranny is alive and well as a criminal element tries to maintain control and stifle opposing views. On this board, if you are not part of the rah-rah crowd clearly you are treated as evil. But free speech is an American right and Browns fans have a right to express their frustations with management when they feel they are doing wrong and to offer suggestions and warnings.

And if your friends don't stop it, here's a potential storyline for the print and TV news media in Cleveland: "Parents in northeast Ohio are always concenred about what their kids read on the internet. Now we learn that something as innocent looking as a Cleveland Browns chat board, one that is affilaited with the Browns, is filled with vulgarities, suggestive photos and other questionable content that your kids may be viewing. Stay tuned for the story at 6 PM."

Keep it up and you may not have a chat board much longer.

@the-gipper said:

And yet, he has more experience that Thomas does. Thomas is going to be a fucking rookie dude.

It is NFL experience that counts, not college experience. And I suspect Gipson had as much or more experience in college as Thomas. After all, they played in the same league essentially, so the competition faced was equal.

Besides, how do you know that Thomas is faster and stronger? Do you have those statistics?

Gipson is counted on to be the STARTER. Thomas is not.

Thomas ran about 4.4 in the 40, Gipson about a 5.2

Thomas did 28 reps in the bench press at the Combine, more than Ziggy Ansah and Kevin Minter, two high front 7 defense draft pics. I doubt Gipson was anywhere close to that.

Mingo refused to lift in his pro day or at the Combine, and i am sure if he did, it would be much less than thomas.

@shep said:

I respectfully disagree. Tony Grossi just made the point that a championship team isn't an all star team. The Pats started Troy Brown as a corner during playoff runs. They had a ton of "mid-range free agents" who became solid, game-in-game-out contributors.

The key is to have your "stars" in the positions of greatest impact. And in a passing league, most people think that's pass rushers, probably a #1 corner, left tackle, a variety of pass catchers, and miles above everything else, quarterback.

Non-rush linebackers are being devalued in this league but DQJ and Robertson are terrific tacklers who can run. I like JMJ, too. I just don't see how we have a problem at linebacker at all.

I think we have a very good chance of fielding strong units at WR (and I include Cameron/Nelson for 12 packages), RB, OL, DL, and linebacker. The defensive backfield is a little bigger question mark because we have to fill in around two excellent starters in Haden and Ward... but I think we have the athletes to do it.

If Weeden really steps up, the Browns will go into the next offseason with fewer needs than at any time in memory.

I'm not as high on the starters at WR and TE as some are. Still in a wait and see mode there. I worry about quality depth at inside linebacker (though Fort may prove me wrong) and in the secondary.

But the most important thing to happen for the Browns is for Weeden to step up and take a leap forward in improvement. That's very possible. The guy was a pretty good QB in college and there is hope that Chud and Norv can coach him up and maximize the talent he has. It'll be interesting to watch, for sure.

I disagree about fewer needs going in to next season. Browns need to add a good tight end, can use another big receiver who can stretch the defense, and will need more help at ILB (Jackson is getting older) and in the secondary.

One thing to think about: how good will the kicking game be? That could turn into a real problem area for the Browns.

@the-gipper said:

Can we have this post deleted? And any others where he brings up the DB in an inappropriate place in a thread?

Gotta love how you, Zombo and your little band try to control content on this board. We see this kind of thing happening in China, Venezuela, Iran and other parts of the Middle East and it eventually fails or will fail.

BTW, the post I made is about Mike Lombardi, which this thread is about. Lombardi is the one who made the historically bad decision to trade with the Browns' fierecest rival and give them the opportunity to fill a need by drafting Shamarko Thomas, a guy who may haunt this franchise for many years to come.

Meanwhile, a lot of your posts have nothing to do with Browns football at all (although I don't care). But if you adere to hyour personal control standards, maybe you should be the one calling for your own posts to be deleted!

Also gotta love your little game of hacking in to my board name. I truly feel sorry for you and your silly and immature little hoard.

@diehardbrownsfan said:

Wow, the zombie war? GTFU.

I see you're another one of the immature twits on this board. That's a shame.

@shep said:

Shamarko has a very real height issue (not many 5'9" safeties) and while he's straight line fast, he isn't a very fluid athlete (Gipson is for sure). Nobody can really judge his instincts in the pass game because he mostly stepped up into the box and wasn't asked to cover much.

He's just not what we want at that position and was never a serious consideration. Gipson showed instincts, a sense of being in the right place, and played some corner in college. It just makes way more sense.

Thomas did do some cover work and handled it fairly capably. His height is an issue for a safety and that is why he fell to the 4th round. But Thomas is faster than Gipson and is much stronger. Thomas is better suited at strong safety but his flexibilityand speed are plusses for the Steelers. I think Thomas is a savvy guy, a gamer, and he will show you that over time.

I also think Gipson is a gamer, too. I think he has some limitations that will prevent him from becoming one of the league's best free safeties, but he certainly could grow into a competent one. My big issue is with his back up. I simply don't think he is good enough for such an important position.

I also believe you underestimate Gipson's lack of expeirence going in to the 2013 season. He played in a limited role much of 2012 and only started 3 games. There is going to be a learning curve for him in 2013 and he will get burned some and be out of position on some plays and hurt the Browns chances as a result. .

@ballpeen said:

Camp opens next month if that makes it seem closer to the season.

The good news for the Browns is that they have a superior head coach and offensive coordinator this year. Maybe, finally, the Bronws offense will create some unpredictability.

@shep said:

Holy crap, I'm ready for some football. Nothing but teenager movies and baseball all summer. Although "World War Z" looks pretty awesome.

Here's a nice tee up.

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2013/06/cleveland_browns_facing_questi.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

If you haven't read the book World War Z, I highly advise it. Very good read and cleverly done. The movie probably won't be so hot but it could never do justice to the fine book which tells stories about how different people around the world coped with the Zombie War.

Zombo said:

First of all, we don't want, or encourage kids to visit the site.

If we did, we wouldn't allow the "foul" language.

It is a place for adult, thick-skinned Browns fans to have fun, talk about the Browns and hash things out.

Now, if you choose to be a pompous windbag and walk in here and shit all over the Browns, and shit all over the new ownership's team before they even play one game with newly picked administration and coaching staff, and declare yourself better than NFL personnel people and fixate and cry like a jilted schoolgirl over a fourth round safety that was passed over for a third round draft pick ... people just aren't going to get used to you, ever. They're not going to listen to you and they're going to wonder why you stay on a site where everyone thinks you're an Assclown.

You keep crying that you are sick of the losing. We all are. Many of us have been together for 14 years and we are frustrated. But we have HOPE now. There is new ownership, young talent, new coaches and whole different administration. They have absolutely nothing to do with the product the Lerners put on the field.

And it may, or may not, take another year of struggling before we can see what we have now. But no one wants to hear your whiney ass bitch and moan the whole way through it, especially before the players even put pads on.

You don't like Lombardi. We get it. You would have added more secondary depth. I understand.

But 20 whiney windbag posts a day crying about this team before we can see one fucking result is as annoying as fuck ... or let me make that kid-friendly for you .. Constant crying leads to a permanent time out around here ...

Zombo

--but you can swear all the fuck you want.

Meanwhile, here's what the highly respected Pro Football Focus had to say about the Browns drafting Barky Mingo and just another reason I am furious at the decison making of Banner and Lombardi. I agree nearly 100% with PFF's assessment, expcet I think Mingo's real draft value was about #25 or so.

With the sixth pick in the 2013 NFL Draft, the Cleveland Browns selected OLB Barkevioius Mingo (LSU Tigers). Alabama Crimson Tide right tackle D.J. Fluker called Mingo “the best speed rusher in college football,” and there’s little question that Mingo is a very talented pass-rusher.

However, his well-reported lack of upper body strength (he refused to bench press at the combine or his pro day) is actually a real cause for concern, because the tape shows him struggling to shed blockers.

Now, to be fair, the level of competition Mingo faced in 2012 was substantially higher than that faced by Oregon DE Dion Jordan. However, it’s also important to note that Mingo lined up predominantly on the left side, going against the opposition’s right tackle on virtually every play, while Jordan consistently went against the opponent’s left tackle. Mingo’s inability to distinguish himself as a game-breaker against Fluker and Texas A&M right tackle Jake Matthews is a clear sign that he is really a non-elite mid-first-round talent, not a legitimate top-5 pick. At sixth overall, Mingo was probably over-drafted by 10 or so slots.

@shep said:

The Browns had no interest in Shamarko Thomas because he isn't seen as a great cover guy, more of a future replacement for Big Hair. Makes most of his plays at the line of scrimmage, not a steal in the fourth round but decent enough value.

He was redundant with T.J. Ward. Getting a third in a better draft for a fourth in a lesser draft is good business.

Shamarko Thomas ran a very fast 4.42 40 at the Combine (I believe Brown FS Gipson's 40 time was something like 4.52) and many consider him to have suprisingly decent but not great cover capabilities -- his lack of height may hurt him a bit in coverage, as will be the case for Leon McFadden. If the Browns had selected Thomas, he would have been a fine back up for Ward. Thomas had an amazing 28 reps with the iron at the Combine. Contrast that with Mingo, who decided not to bench press at the Combine and many speculated he was embarrassed with what he would produce. Thomas also out lifted Ziggy Ansah at the Combine.

I consider Thomas better fitted at strong safety, but what you may not be aware of is that the Steelers are giving Thomas a lot of work at free safety vs. strong safety. This kid is going to be a good player.

Zombo said:

Jeezus H. Fuck, Dicktits, You have quoted me three times, but still have not actually read, or comprehended what I said.

First of all, I never mentioned his blocking. Never alluded to it, have never spoken of it, or judged it, in my entire live-long life.

Second of all, the post begins "Let's put on the rose-colored glasses for a moment ..."

It actually says that.

And I know your cognitive abilities are lacking, you prove that over and over, but every assfuck that has made it past the fifth grade knows what the fuck that phrase means.

But not "Skeptical", he has to tell us how he knows how this guy has dropped passes and failed in his last opportunity. We already know that, penislicker, that was a given and implied.

But as Browns FANS, I was offering some hope ... I was saying "wouldn't it be a great surprise if this huge athletic kid got his shit together in Cleveland with this coaching staff?"

I don't expect it. I imagine Kellen Davis will continue to be Kellen Davis and we'll be looking for another backup tight end next year. But you never know, the staff may get him turned around and that would be good for everybody ... I thought ... then I met you.

That would be bad for you, because Mike Lombardi was our GM when this kid was brought in, and, as we all know, you think the experienced, articulate Lombardi is the dumbest fuck who ever walked planet earth and he has to fail miserably in Cleveland for you to to feel good about yourself and your cloud of gloom that you have brought to our board.

But this is no normal man hate, this is personal isn't it? Because when Mike Lombardi was in Cleveland in the early 90's ... he fucked your wife.

He had to.

There is no other reason for this angst, and bitterness and constant vilification for everything that this administration does, that you have brought to our board.

He fucked her, and he fucked her hard. He stuck his Italian salami in places you only dreamed about going in with your pencil dick. And he made her scream like you never have or never will. And sometimes at night, your wife still moans out his name.

"Mike ... Mike ... give Mommy her meat snake"

That is the only possible explanation for your vile hatred for the organization that the rest of us hope for, root for, and invest our hard-earned Sundays into.

Fuck off. This board isn't for you. We're Browns fans. And we're allowed to get mad at our team, criticize our team, and even dislike certain players or administrators. But to just shit on the team night and day ... we can get that from the Steeler fans.

But at least they have some integrity. They are on a mission, representing their team

You're just a bitter, old, assfuck who wants to make everybody miserable. That's your mission. Accomplish it somewhere else.

Zombo

I'm beginning to wonder if you and Hairy Buffalo are the same person. And as it applies to you, sir, your full-court ugliness and extensive use of foul language has no place in a public forum like this that is visited by kids., It's you sir, who should get out, and take your ugly act and the nasty people you are friends with, and go do your juvenie thing behind some firewall, preferably a cave in Siberia.

Like you, I am a diehard Browns fan. But I guess you don't grasp the fact that human beings are different and aren't stamped out on an assembly line like you think they should be -- all with the same happy-happy view of the team.

My perspective is that I am very unhappy with many of the personnel moves and decisions made by the Banner/Lombardi regime. For example: trading with your fiercest rival and allowing them to immediately fill a weakness with a pretty good player who could hurt your team as early as the 2013 season? That's plain insane!

It looks like more of the same clueless decision making we have seen for 14 years now, and I am tired of it, and mad as hell about it. Yes, I am belligerant in my attitude toward Lombardi and Banner, and I will express my opinion about it! I am tired of the Steelers, Ravens and now the Bengals making one smart move after another year after year while the Browns management stumbles and looks stupid again and again and again.

@the-gipper said:

And yet, others....like Bill Polian, who works for ESPN, rated Michael Wallace and Paul Kruger the #1 and #2 FAs available.

Now, I don't know who is doing ESPNs rankings on this.....but if anyone has talent scouting credibility it is Bill Polian.

So much for that bit of dumbassery.

If you read my post thoroughly, you would see I am just quoting what Scouts, Inc. said in its ratings of NFL free agents. They had him tied for 90th. I'd probably rate him in the top 30 somewhere, but I do disagree we paid him like a top 5 free agent.

I absolutely respect Bill Polian's opinion and anything he says should be carefully listened to. Certainly Browns fans who think Kruger was a terrific acquisiton can make their case for him. Meanwhile, a number of experts have Kruger as their #1 potential bust.

@shep said:

Oh, dear God. Paul Kruger's back gets well and he goes on a tear, 12 sacks in his last 12 games through the championship... and he's of lesser value than Massoqoui who has done slightly more than I have as an NFL player.

You have officially outed yourself as some kind of macabre performance art with an underlying message about the Internet's corrosive effect on truth. You've jumped the shark, though.

I'm only reporting what ESPN Insider reported and the analysis work was completed for them by the well known and credible Scouts, Inc.

Actually, Kruger is rated ahead of MoMass, with a rating of 75 vs. 72. But Sheldon Browns (76) and Phil Dawson (77) are rated ahead of Kruger. Ben Watson is at 73.

In all, Kruger is in a tie with a bunch of players, including Payton HIllis, as the 90th best free agent. Jake Long was rated the best free agent.

Now, I personally rate Kruger much higher than 90th best FA, but this is another indicator that a lot of people think Kruger's stats last year were vastly inflated by the presence of Terrell Suggs and the fact that Kruger is really a part-time player, so bad against tthe run he was only in the Super Bowl game for one-third of the plays.

I like the idea of having Kruger on the Browns as a part-time pass rusher, it's just that we way overpaid for him in the opinion of many experts. Kruger can't play the run, according to his own defensive coaches in Baltimore and other observers around the league. I also am miffed that Lombardi paid so much attention to Kruger and didn't make it an equal priority to acquire quality FAs at tight end and in the secondary.

@harry-buffalo said:

Kipper is the biggest fucking idiot in sports. How the fuck he got his job is beyond me. How does a guy who never played in college or the nfl, and who was never a scout or coach, become a draft analyst. While Mayock at least has playing experiance, the only reason people love his coverage is because he gets compared to Kiper. It's the chearleader affect. You go to a bar and you see a group of girls, most of the girls are fuggly cows, but one is hot as hell. You get her alone and you see that she is average at best because your subconsious mind was just comparing her to her friends the whole time. I don't take shit Mayock says seriously. The fact that you care what BOTH of these guys says with their draft ranking just shows how much of an idiot you truely are.

ESPN, Browns.com, and Wiki have Haden listed at 5'11 while NFL and Wiki has McFadden at 5"10

Your going to be in for a shock when he gets destroyed by some safety and breaks.

Cunt

Hairy Buffalo, we really appreciate your "deep" insights on this board!

But you are clearly best known for your use of sexual slang words, mostly 4 letters in length, the kind that bring giggles to 5th and 6th grade little boys.

Are you, in fact, a grade school or junior high school student? Or are you just an extremely immature adult?

@choco said:

Your posts suggest you're just another fantasy football cheerleader.

There's only been one draft board leaked. You know where McFadden was rated....how...exactly? Have you met he and Haden? Hmm....

You want a guy like Rhodes based solely on measurables....no reason to consider a scheme fit right? I mean....you gotta be over 6 foot to defend in this league right? All that matter is to kill the combine and be tall....

Ironic how while you yourself being clueless allows you to call others the same, while citing your opinion as some sort of fact. Did you really use kiper and mcshays opinion as some sort of evidence? Lmao....

People post their opinions, new jack. Yours is no better than anyone else's, and certainly looks as though you think espin is an authority. This suggests you simply regurgitate others opinions because you can't form your own outside of fantasy football statistical analysis.

Actually, I watch players play as much as I can and then make asssesments. As I have written, I am really pullling for Mingo but watching him play in the SEC last year he didn't really make all that much of an impact. He didn't even make first team all SEC.

There were at least 15-20 defensive players in the SEC last year I thought were better than Mingo. NT Floyd from Florida was the best defensive player I saw. Flroida Safety Elam was stellar as was Alex Oglretree of Georgia and Milliner of Alabama. I am not as high on Pittsburgh Steeles first pick Jarvis Jones, either.

In the 5th round. Browns had a golden opportunity to take Georgia Safety Bacarri Rambo, a quality athlete who I predict will be a better player in the NFL than the Browns pick in the 6th round, S Slaughter from Notre Dame. Instead, "the brilliant" Lombardi traded the pick.

@shep said:

Honestly, that's a much better case to make, Skeptical. It's always fascinated me that Lombardi is really respected around the league (and I do like his general philosophies)... but he's never really been given the keys.

Heckert made some nice finds but I just don't agree with his "vision" of team building. It's gonna take one helluva lot to make sense of trading up to get a back at #3 overall in a passing league. They get hurt (check) and they're easily found all over the draft (check).

You just need to run the ball well enough to run out the clock and hold a lead. That's really it. Being good on the ground is better than being bad but not at any kind of premium price of dollars or draft picks. I love what the Packers did in the last draft.

Nice, thoughtful post.

@miktoxic said:

for all those who hate belichick, you have to admit he is one of the greatest coaches of all time. there is no denying it. and for belichick to see something in mangini and teach him to coach, well you all sound as blind deaf and dumb as skeptical2013.

Mangini was very questionable in motiviating players and evaluating talent and, like many Belichick disciples, one of his weaknesses was bringing in mediocre talent from his old teams, players who are quickly jettisoned once a new regime arrives and mangini leaves. The reason: Most of Mangini's "guys" aren't very good.

@harry-buffalo said:

There is so much in here I want to bash you for, but all I am going to say is that playing aolt and being good are two different things. You yourself have made that abundantly clear.

And we thank you for your wonderful contributions that focus almost primarily on personally bashing other people you don't agree with.

@shep said:

Wow, this is such a strange dynamic. Skeptical posts that anybody the Browns take/sign is doomed to suckage and anybody they don't take/sign is destined for imminent greatness. He's also the most prolific poster so the overall thesis here is that the Browns suck and following them is going to be a horrible experience forever and ever.

Again, tough to understand how that's fun.

Some of the quality signings by the Browns this off season:

Dion Lewis -- really excited about having him on the roster, a dynamic player.

Desmond Bryant -- he'll be a real force up front if he can stay off the police blotter

Bess and Nelson -- Quality receivers will add important depth to the receiving corps with ability to make plays in the clutch

Draft and UDFA -- OG Gilkey a real value in round 7 and UDFA Chris Faulk from LSU is a potential NFL star

LB Groves -- Adds quality depth at OLB

Meanwhile, players like Kruger, Davis and Owens among those rated very low in ESPN's comprehensive ratings of all the free agents. In fact, players the Browns let go, like MoMass and Cribbs, are rated almost as high as Kruger.

Zombo said:

Well, yes ... but let's put on the rose-colored glasses for a moment.

Kellen Davis is a massive target and, by all reports, a good athlete.

The knock on him was his work ethic.

In 2011, he was a victim of a Mike Martz offense that forgot they had a tight end.

In 2012, he had a bad case of the dropsies, which secured his ticket out of town.

But maybe, just maybe, in Chud's tight-end friendly system, with no pressure coming in as the projected backup, this kid will pull his head out of his ass and salvage his NFL career.

I mean ... Norv Turner and a 6'7 athletic tight end ... it can happen, right?

Nevermind ... carry on with the skeptical stuff.

Zombo

Gotta love Zombo's optimism about Kellen Davis. He thinks that Chud is going to wave his magic wand and Davis, a total failure in Chicago, will suddenly transform (we've heard that Gary Barnidge, a zero in 5 years in Carolina, is going to suddenly blossom into a great TE receiver, too!).

Below are two stories about Davis among dozens of negative articles about him.

While Zombo tells us Davis is a great blocker, as noted in the article, Davis was heavily critizied by Chicago fans for his poor blocking and falling down. Some of the Bears fans comments in this first article about Davis's terrible receiving and poor blocking are priceless! They are so happy to see him out!

http://www.windycitygridiron.com/2013/3/13/4098626/chicago-bears-release-te-kellen-davis-free-agency-cut

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000150316/article/kellen-davis-released-by-chicago-bears